Islam4UK

You are absolutely right Xenon, but you are missing the point. People who get into these arguments are not arguing about the existence of god - they are arguing about who is right.

I'm not, as such. I'm arguing about who is not wrong, which is a slightly different viewpoint. It is possible that we could all be wrong, or that any one of us could be right. As you move away from the centre is where the problems start with both sides asserting that they are right and the others are wrong.

I've never accused a theist or atheist of being wrong about their beliefs (because I can't prove it either way), only pointed out if their logic is flawed or they are (accidentally or deliberately) misrepresenting their own position.

Man has argued for centuries - and even gone to war and committed terrible atrocities - just to prove he is right. Which is a ridiculous thing to do because "right" and "wrong" are abstract concepts open to interpretation and are entirely relative to an individuals life experiences and beliefs.

Indeed, and for a great many religious and non-religious reasons...

If you look back through this thread you will see my point exactly - loads of posts arguing about semantics and theoretical positions all of which are based on whichever side you are on being "right".

Quite futile really.

Philosophy frequently is, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid topic of discussion.
 
BNP are British generations born and bred here and so were there ancestors,they BELONG here wether you share there views or not...islam are a bunch of foreign ***** spreading hatred and forcing there views on everyone

It should be the message that is judged, not the messenger.

Perhaps we could get all those who want to force their hatred on to everyone to wear a patch sewed onto their clothes or something ;)
 
But language, evolves, it doesn't matter how it was used several hundred years ago, but it does matter what the accepted definition is now.

That's where we differ. I think the original meaning of the word is important - especially in this case since the "accepted definition" was derived by someone who had a definite motive for altering the meaning of the word to suit his own belief.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. I asked for a definition of atheism and Dolph supplied two. One which seems to suit your side of the argument and one which seems to suit mine. Neither side is ever going to agree or accept the other's position as being correct so the argument has been pointless but stimulating.

Unfortunately I now have some work to do :(
 
I'm fed up about reading about people coming over here accepting our hospitality, living off our handouts, enjoying the benefits of a democratic society yet have no respect for our way of life. We accept them because over the last 30 years or so our society has changed that we have too (apparantly). Yet these are the people that literally bite the hands that feeds them.

If these people really don't like it here or our own political agenda, then like anyone and i mean anyone has a choice to stay or go. In particularly if these Muslim groups are so anti-British and so against our actions in Afghanistan then they should be forced to leave and fight for the liberty of their own country that they are otherwise running away from. I’m my eyes these groups are traitors and should be treated as such.

Integrate or **** ***!
 
Arguing about God is one of the most stupid things you could possible argue about

There is no proof god exists

There is no proof god does not exist


The argument cannot be won and it is pointless and stupid

It's not going to stop the subsequent 6 million post of bickering though.;)
 
The argument cannot be won and it is pointless and stupid

Pointless?
Attempting to resolve the issue by argument is probably pointless but the actual act of arguing is rarely pointless - there's always a point to it. For myself, I found the argument stimulating - not fulfilling but much less tedious that sitting staring at boobies all afternoon. Also, I now know what several other people think on the subject and I was forced to check out some stuff from other sources during the course of the argument so I have learned stuff this afternoon.
That's a no on pointless then.

Stupid?
Who are you to say that what other people discuss is stupid?
Not wanting to involve yourself in the discussion because you don't feel you would enjoy it is hardly a reason to label it stupid - that's rather narrow-minded.
 
If these people really don't like it here or our own political agenda, then like anyone and i mean anyone has a choice to stay or go. In particularly if these Muslim groups are so anti-British and so against our actions in Afghanistan then they should be forced to leave and fight for the liberty of their own country that they are otherwise running away from. I’m my eyes these groups are traitors and should be treated as such.

Integrate or **** ***!

So all Tory voters should just leave rather than change the status quo should they? Lots of people don't like this country's political agenda.

There are plenty of British people against the war, should they also leave? What if I don't salute the flag every morning?

You sound like you're advocating some sort of fascist rule with your "traitors" comment. Either fall into line with the Government's thinking or what...(again) leave?

What kind of way is that to run the country? And you're also assuming that Muslims in Britain are Iraqi or from Afghanistan. A lot of them are not, so they have no obligation to fight and lose their lives for a country which isn't their own.
 
Pointless?
Attempting to resolve the issue by argument is probably pointless but the actual act of arguing is rarely pointless - there's always a point to it. For myself, I found the argument stimulating - not fulfilling but much less tedious that sitting staring at boobies all afternoon. Also, I now know what several other people think on the subject and I was forced to check out some stuff from other sources during the course of the argument so I have learned stuff this afternoon.
That's a no on pointless then.

Stupid?
Who are you to say that what other people discuss is stupid?
Not wanting to involve yourself in the discussion because you don't feel you would enjoy it is hardly a reason to label it stupid - that's rather narrow-minded.

My Point is why argue if the argument cannot be won be either side?
 
My Point is why argue if the argument cannot be won be either side?

As I said above, not all of the pleasure of arguing a point with someone derives from winning the argument. There are other things to be gained from an exchange of views.

If I never did anything where I didn't think I'd win, I wouldn't do a hell of a lot.
 
So all Tory voters should just leave rather than change the status quo should they? Lots of people don't like this country's political agenda.

There are plenty of British people against the war, should they also leave? What if I don't salute the flag every morning?

You sound like you're advocating some sort of fascist rule with your "traitors" comment. Either fall into line with the Government's thinking or what...(again) leave?

What kind of way is that to run the country? And you're also assuming that Muslims in Britain are Iraqi or from Afghanistan. A lot of them are not, so they have no obligation to fight and lose their lives for a country which isn't their own.[/QUOTE]

err... NO...

people want to do what is best for them. and usually what is good for the country is good for the individual (usually)

so you might disagree with labour, or Tory about how the country should be run. but you have the interests of yourself, as a national citizen.

people who come over here, scrounge benefits and then complain about nonsensical issues are here to further themselves but to the detriment to the country...

What kind of way is that to run the country? And you're also assuming that Muslims in Britain are Iraqi or from Afghanistan. A lot of them are not, so they have no obligation to fight and lose their lives for a country which isn't their own.

do they come here with an obligation to give back to the country more than they take? because they should. we offer hospitality, it gets taken advantage of, we lose out. we protest. see speakers corner.
 
You can argue semantics all you want but I think you will still find it hard to find an atheist who actually fits the classical definition if they are of the thinking persuasion - you are arguing that there is an validity/invalidity to a viewpoint that in the main people are not taking even the likes of Dawkins. Classical defined atheists are few and far between people who are pretty certain god does not exist are however quite numerous. The classical definition of absolute unbelief is not really appropriate if that is not what really is represented in the current climate.
 
You can argue semantics all you want but I think you will still find it hard to find an atheist who actually fits the classical definition if they are of the thinking persuasion - you are arguing that there is an validity/invalidity to a viewpoint that in the main people are not taking even the likes of Dawkins. Classical defined atheists are few and far between people who are pretty certain god does not exist are however quite numerous. The classical definition of absolute unbelief is not really appropriate if that is not what really is represented in the current climate.

Well, except the classical definition doesn't require absolute belief in no god, only an active disbelief (as opposed to a simple lack of active belief) in a god.

Dawkins, at 4 his 1-5 scale, is certainly an atheist, because although he doesn't know there is no god, he is explicit in his stated disbelief in a god.
 
Dawkins, at 4 his 1-5 scale, is certainly an atheist, because although he doesn't know there is no god, he is explicit in his stated disbelief in a god.
I think you mean his 1-7 scale. Dawkins plots himself between 6 and 7 as like you say, he's not absolutely sure there is no God, but he sees no evidence to suggest there is and operates his life under that assumption (as do I).
 
people who come over here, scrounge benefits and then complain about nonsensical issues are here to further themselves but to the detriment to the country...

Err yeah, pity about all those benefits scroungers that were born here then isn't it? Thinking they're due entitlements because of their place of birth...

do they come here with an obligation to give back to the country more than they take? because they should. we offer hospitality, it gets taken advantage of, we lose out. we protest. see speakers corner.

And you contribute what to this country? How do you know immigrants don't contribute on the whole?
 
I think you mean his 1-7 scale. Dawkins plots himself between 6 and 7 as like you say, he's not absolutely sure there is no God, but he sees no evidence to suggest there is and operates his life under that assumption (as do I).

A position which can also be stated as faith in the idea that absence of evidence is equivalent to evidence of absence for a given position.

A logical and rational person simply says that, in the absence of evidence, the existence or non-existence of the entity is irrelevant...
 
A position which can also be stated as faith in the idea that absence of evidence is equivalent to evidence of absence for a given position.

A logical and rational person simply says that, in the absence of evidence, the existence or non-existence of the entity is irrelevant...
Disagree. There's no faith involved whatsoever in an atheistic belief of that sort. If there's no evidence for something being true, your default position is that it isn't false? What if I were to say there's a giant inflatable pink rhino floating behind your head right now (I'm assuming there's not...), would your default stance on that rhino's existence be agnostic one as there's no evidence that it doesn't exist? I don't say that there is no God, but given that there's no evidence to suggest there is, why would I believe there is?

It's impossible to prove the non-existence of something anyway, regardless of whether God is mentioned in the question. Because of this reality, the burden of proof must always lie with the believer.

Also, yes, I do believe that the default position is non-existence in the absence of evidence.
 
Disagree. There's no faith involved whatsoever in an atheistic belief of that sort. If there's no evidence for something being true, your default position is that it isn't false? What if I were to say there's a giant inflatable pink rhino floating behind your head right now (I'm assuming there's not...), would your default stance on that rhino's existence be agnostic one as there's no evidence that it doesn't exist? I don't say that there is no God, but given that there's no evidence to suggest there is, why would I believe there is?

It's impossible to prove the non-existence of something anyway, regardless of whether God is mentioned in the question. Because of this reality, the burden of proof must always lie with the believer.

Also, yes, I do believe that the default position is non-existence in the absence of evidence.

In the absence of reliable, valid testing processes for the hypothesis, and clearly defined evidential requirements, my argument is that the hypothesis is untested and therefore it's status is unknown, and until the effect, and therefore evidence, can be established, it is also irrelevant.

To use your example, until I turn my head and check, the status is unknown, and unless it's about to hit me in the back of the head, it is also irrelevant. Alas, such an example is not a good one to use, because you've given an example of an easily testable hypothesis.

I prefer to use Russell's teapot, and again, the idea is similar. It is not that I believe in the teapot, however I do not assert that the teapot is probably not there either, because both of those positions are a leap of faith. The only position that makes sense is that you don't know. But again, it is also irrelevant whether it is there or not if it cannot be detected...

You are right that it is almost impossible to prove non-existence, however for most things, it is possible to define the evidence that should be there in such a way that absence of evidence is a good equivalent to evidence of absence. The problem is that this does not extend to the idea of a god.

The very idea that absence of evidence is evidence of absence when applied to the god hypothesis can therefore be nothing more than an act of faith, because there is no logical reason to accept it to be true. Even when applied correctly, it is still an assumption, hence the entire line of reasoning is an example of argumentum ad ignorantiam and hence fallacious.

Incidentally, what is the problem with having faith or belief in assumptions? It is a cornerstone of the scientific method after all that some aspects are taken a priori, as unless you do, the whole process falls down...
 
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I do have a problem with having a faith based belief as for one, I hate what the term is synonymous with and second, I just try (as much as possible) to base my opinions and beliefs on fact.

Allow me to, if I may, to quote Richard Dawkins (if you haven't read the God Delusion, I strongly recommend it) as he addresses this point and responds a hundred times more eloquently than I could dream of.

"But Huxley, in his concentration upon the absolute impossibility of proving or disproving God, seems to have been ignoring the shading of probability. The fact that we can neither prove nor disprove the existence of something does not put existence and non-existence on an even footing. I don't think Huxley would disagree, and I suspect that when he appeared to do so, he was bending over backwards to concede a point, in the interests of securing another one. We have all done this at one time or another.
Contrary to Huxley, I shall suggest that the existence of God is a scientific hypothesis like any other. Even if hard to test in practice, belong in the same TAP (temporary agnosticism in practice) box about the universe, discoverable on principle if not in practice. If he existed and chose to reveal it, God himself could clinch the argument, noisily and unequivocally, in his favour. And even if God's existence is never proved or disproved with the certainty one way or the other, available evidence and reason may yield an estimate of probability far from 50 per cent."

Maan, so much waffle... I didn't realise how much. :p Along with Russell's teapot (which stands for an infinite number of undisprovable entities), the Flying Spaghetti Monster is another great example to illustrate the point. The point of said example is that, like the Abrahamic God, the Spaghetti Monster is undisprovable, however, I'm yet to meet a person that believes the hypothesis of their existence is on an even footing with the hypothesis of their non-existence.
 
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