V-Sync Causes mouse lag? (5970)

Rroff · 4 Mar 2010 at 02:33

Hmm this could be a refresh rate bug... theres a known 59/60Hz issues but I don't know the details off the top of my head.

stooeh · 4 Mar 2010 at 03:04

This is a problem that has bothered me for years. Never found a decent solution other than disabling vsync. :mad:

I'll have to try out the 59FPS thing in CSS since it normally is really bad for me in source games with vsync on so I put up with tearing.
On non FPS games such as GTAIV or Mass Effect 1/2 I live with the mouse lag instead

I read somewhere about triple buffering helping the situation but in a D3D game it needs to be implemented by the game itself (and that D3Doverrider implements a different type of buffering that worsens the effect). Apparently can be forced in OpenGL games using the drivers but when I tried forcing it for quakelive using nhancer it felt terribly laggy.

Rroff · 4 Mar 2010 at 03:07

Capping below the vsync rate is going to wreak havok with the framerate - unless it is something getting 59/60Hz mixed up and waiting when it shouldn't.

Personally I dunno why anyone who plays fps games uses VSync anyway even without SLI at 60Hz the input latency is horrid, its just about ok at 120Hz but tearing is less of an issue then as well anyway.

Toilet-Duck · 4 Mar 2010 at 03:40

So is this a windows 7 refresh bug or did it exist in vista too?

I cant believe I've got a top of the line computer and cant run vsync without forcing the FPS to 59/58.

I really notice tearing on my screen when vsync is turned off.

thedoc46 · 4 Mar 2010 at 03:56

Toilet-Duck said:
So is this a windows 7 refresh bug or did it exist in vista too?

I cant believe I've got a top of the line computer and cant run vsync without forcing the FPS to 59/58.

I really notice tearing on my screen when vsync is turned off.

I can never really understand why people are so dead against vsync. To me without it, it is NASTY. Horrible screen tearing. Regardless of which LCD screen i've ever used. What is the point of spending all that money on a decent gfx card and then ruin everything with all that ugly tearing? No way, vsync on is a must in my eyes. So what if your fraps is limited? It's not always about the benchmark. The game just plays so much smoother.

I've always used vsync on and if there's any mouse lag, i've eliminated it via the 59.9 maxfps command. Unfortunately in MW2 they've disabled the console, so you have to live with mouse smoothing as an alternative.

Also make sure your monitor is set to 60hz.

And the argument of 120hz? What's the point, the pinnacle of smoothness comes as 60hz / 60fps anyway? Any more isn't noticable.

Like having 1000billion colors instead of 16 billion colors. You are not going to see the difference... MAYBE your mouse lag may go? I dunno, my screen doesn't do 120hz.

Brizzles · 4 Mar 2010 at 04:11

Toilet-Duck said:
But MW2 and some other games I play don't appear to have a set MAX FPS.

MW2

Bring up the console .

Type /com_maxfps 90 (90 is default)

You could try adjusting that.

EDIT - Soz, thats Modern Warfare - Its late...I'm tired !

mmj_uk · 4 Mar 2010 at 09:20

Toilet-Duck said:
Can someone tell me how I can disable crossfire on a 5970? I didn't think it was possible with the 5970 unless you have 2 cards together..

As far as I know you just disable Catalyst AI.

Prof. Cheese · 4 Mar 2010 at 10:40

Rroff said:
Capping below the vsync rate is going to wreak havok with the framerate - unless it is something getting 59/60Hz mixed up and waiting when it shouldn't.

Personally I dunno why anyone who plays fps games uses VSync anyway even without SLI at 60Hz the input latency is horrid, its just about ok at 120Hz but tearing is less of an issue then as well anyway.

I can't stand playing any games without V-Sync turned on. I'd sooner go without AA than have it switched off. I know the tearing doesn't bother most people so much, but I find it horrid.

I always use V-Sync and never suffer from mouse lag issues. The only time I ever did was with my old HD4870x2. And then I fixed it by disabling OS mouse acceleration. If there is any scientifically measurable lag remaining, it certainly isn't noticable by the human eye so is a non-issue.

Jimbo Mahoney · 4 Mar 2010 at 13:42

Warbie said:
v-sync has always resulted in slight mouse lag, regardless of whether acceleration is tuned off or not (which it always should be!). Someone mentioned that triple buffering might help - I haven't tried that tho.

Get used to the tearing or let your twitch aim suffer - one of the two.

stooeh said:
This is a problem that has bothered me for years. Never found a decent solution other than disabling vsync.

+1

I always disable Vsync because of the mouse lag (or technically the display lag since the frames being displayed are actually being "buffered" by Vsync).

crinkleshoes · 4 Mar 2010 at 16:59

Prof. Cheese said:
I can't stand playing any games without V-Sync turned on. I'd sooner go without AA than have it switched off. I know the tearing doesn't bother most people so much, but I find it horrid.

I always use V-Sync and never suffer from mouse lag issues. The only time I ever did was with my old HD4870x2. And then I fixed it by disabling OS mouse acceleration. If there is any scientifically measurable lag remaining, it certainly isn't noticable by the human eye so is a non-issue.

Correction... your eyes don't notice it

This problem has been around for years and on multiple computers (so don't start saying it's ati/nvidia single/multiple gpu related).

Vsync always causes noticeable lag... so much so I can never bare to have it turned on.

It's just the way vsync works - you can never completely eliminate the lag...

The 59.9fps trick works because it doesn't even use vsync fully...

thedoc46 · 4 Mar 2010 at 17:37

crinkleshoes said:
Correction... your eyes don't notice it

This problem has been around for years and on multiple computers (so don't start saying it's ati/nvidia single/multiple gpu related).

Vsync always causes noticeable lag... so much so I can never bare to have it turned on.

It's just the way vsync works - you can never completely eliminate the lag...

The 59.9fps trick works because it doesn't even use vsync fully...

The 59.9 trick keeps things smooth and eliminates any tearing.. a win win situation if you ask me !

crinkleshoes · 4 Mar 2010 at 17:39

thedoc46 said:
The 59.9 trick keeps things smooth and eliminates any tearing.. a win win situation if you ask me !

Yeah... but my point is, that's a frame cap, not vsync... not that it really matters

Rroff · 4 Mar 2010 at 17:54

thedoc46 said:
I can never really understand why people are so dead against vsync. To me without it, it is NASTY. Horrible screen tearing. Regardless of which LCD screen i've ever used. What is the point of spending all that money on a decent gfx card and then ruin everything with all that ugly tearing? No way, vsync on is a must in my eyes. So what if your fraps is limited? It's not always about the benchmark. The game just plays so much smoother.

I've always used vsync on and if there's any mouse lag, i've eliminated it via the 59.9 maxfps command. Unfortunately in MW2 they've disabled the console, so you have to live with mouse smoothing as an alternative.

Also make sure your monitor is set to 60hz.

And the argument of 120hz? What's the point, the pinnacle of smoothness comes as 60hz / 60fps anyway? Any more isn't noticable.

Like having 1000billion colors instead of 16 billion colors. You are not going to see the difference... MAYBE your mouse lag may go? I dunno, my screen doesn't do 120hz.

Prof. Cheese said:
I can't stand playing any games without V-Sync turned on. I'd sooner go without AA than have it switched off. I know the tearing doesn't bother most people so much, but I find it horrid.

I always use V-Sync and never suffer from mouse lag issues. The only time I ever did was with my old HD4870x2. And then I fixed it by disabling OS mouse acceleration. If there is any scientifically measurable lag remaining, it certainly isn't noticable by the human eye so is a non-issue.

Input latency is something you feel rather than see as such... it feels like your crosshairs is connected to your mouse input by a rubber band, making precise shots a bit of a pain coz your waiting a slight moment for the mouse to catch up. Some people notice it more than others, but its very real and very there.

The pinnacle of smoothness no way comes at 60Hz thats rubbish... I'm sitting here with one of the best 60Hz panels for gaming alongside a samsung 2233RZ 120Hz - if I extend desktop over both and sit a game in window mode sitting half on each monitor the difference in how smooth it looks and feels on each is noticeable. The 60Hz one is very smooth but theres something just that little bit more responsive about the 120Hz one that makes it more satisfying.

Prof. Cheese · 4 Mar 2010 at 19:28

Well, if it is there it must be like multi-GPU microstuttering. A lot of people claim to see this but I've had many SLi and CrossfireX setups yet have never noticed it whilst searching for it very observantly. So likewise, it's a non-issue for me.

Agree on the 60Hz point. The most important thing is solid frame rates. I always aim for a solid 60FPS, but not because I think 60Hz is the pinnacle, it's because that's the maximum frame rate I can achieve with my monitor. But I'd personally prefer a solid 30FPS to an average of 70FPS, but with frequent dips to the 30s. When the frame rate does that, I can really notice the slowdown and it bugs me.

Rroff · 4 Mar 2010 at 19:49

microstutter for the most part is a non-issue, it only really affects multi GPU systems with mis-matched performance parts... some older ATI crossfire setups before ATI fixed the drivers and the 9800GX2 which suffers from it but not due to the traditional reason of inconsistant time gaps between frames but a more complex technical issue with the card.

Prof. Cheese · 4 Mar 2010 at 22:35

That hasn't stopped countless people stating they've noticed it in other setups though.

Toilet-Duck · 5 Mar 2010 at 01:24

So there is basically no fix for this?

I'm almost 99% sure this did not happen on my previous computer before upgrading, was using VSync in all games without any mouse delay...

I've disabled crossfire on the GPU but this hasn't changed anything and I've been googling for over 3 hours now for a desperate effort to find a fix

I would even pay someone a reward if they managed to find a resolution as I cant seem to solve it no matter what after I've spent over £1k on this PC

stooeh · 5 Mar 2010 at 02:10

I'm not sure when I first started disabling vsync, probably the late 1990s and I don't recall having any problems with mouse lag or tearing. Then a few years ago I got my first LCD (1680x1050 Iyama) and was blown away by the flat screen goodness compared to my trusty 19" CRT.
I stuck on CSS and was like 'EWW!' at the tearing. Some googling later and vsync supposedly sorts that out. It certainly did but with horrific input delay while aiming. Couldn't find any way around it so I just put up with it CSS and other source games. Quake games I also have to leave it off.
New LCD is 1920x1080 Viewsonic and it's same as the Iyama when it comes to input lag. I'd love to play test one of those true 120Hz LCDs with vsync on/off and see how the tearing vs input lag fares.
Tearing Vs Input lag is probably my biggest gaming hate (and usually I go with tearing

)

thedoc46 · 5 Mar 2010 at 03:45

Rroff said:
The pinnacle of smoothness no way comes at 60Hz thats rubbish... I'm sitting here with one of the best 60Hz panels for gaming alongside a samsung 2233RZ 120Hz - if I extend desktop over both and sit a game in window mode sitting half on each monitor the difference in how smooth it looks and feels on each is noticeable. The 60Hz one is very smooth but theres something just that little bit more responsive about the 120Hz one that makes it more satisfying.

Show me one console game that runs at 60fps that has the very slightest of judder? It doesn't cos it's at the PINNACLE. Get a CRT, leave vsync off run it at whatever max fps your card can throw at it, then do it again with vsync on and guess what no difference.

Rroff · 5 Mar 2010 at 03:54

Console games are usually capped at 30fps and rigorously optimized to sustain that framerate, as far as controller input goes thats usually fairly smooth... try playing the same but on a PC with keyboard and mouse and it would feel far from responsive and smooth.