Terrible US Engines

Soldato
Joined
29 Mar 2005
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5,792
Was just wondering why some American engines are so shockingly bad as I'm playing forza and using the Pontiac Trans Am gta. granted its 80s but still How did they manage to make 216 horsepower out of a 5.7 litre v8? I'm slightly baffled to be honest when you consider that a naturally aspirated Toyota mr2 2 litre engine makes about 177 horsepower that that's only 10 years newer.
Can anyone explain this mystery lol
 
Look at how much torque the engine develops as well as the horsepower.

Thats your answer right there. Sure a 2 litre Toyota thing makes 177bhp - but where? 80000000000rpm so you need to thrash the pants off it to get it?

And where is peak power/peak torque on that 5.7 V8?

Which do you think makes for more effortless performance?
 
Was just wondering why some American engines are so shockingly bad as I'm playing forza and using the Pontiac Trans Am gta. granted its 80s but still How did they manage to make 216 horsepower out of a 5.7 litre v8? I'm slightly baffled to be honest when you consider that a naturally aspirated Toyota mr2 2 litre engine makes about 177 horsepower that that's only 10 years newer.
Can anyone explain this mystery lol

They do it because in the USA service intervals are massive and a lot of time the car is just going along long straight highways. The bigger capacity engine is under less stress if it develops so little power so is less likely to go wrong.
 
Ok but how then is a 5.7 v8 created so it isn't a 500hp beast what are differences between say the pontiac engine and a 4 litre BMW v8
 
[TW]Fox;16304526 said:
Look at how much torque the engine develops as well as the horsepower.

Thats your answer right there. Sure a 2 litre Toyota thing makes 177bhp - but where? 80000000000rpm so you need to thrash the pants off it to get it?

And where is peak power/peak torque on that 5.7 V8?

Which do you think makes for more effortless performance?

A sports car engine needs to be revved though, American engines are for barges not cars mainly.

The only good thing to come out of Yankland is the LS series.
 
Part of it is due to the incredibly restrictive emissions in place during the late 70s/80s/90s - they have much tighter 'smog' controls over there than we do and consequently the engines are tuned, and have a vast amount of emissions systems, to meet these regulations - reducing power.

For example, you could have had a 1970 Firebird with a 355BHP Ram-Air engine (top spec), yet by 1975 the top spec engine was a mere 290BHP.

Come 1977, the top-end engine offered a mere 200BHP - all due to restrictions imposed upon them by the government.

On the flipside, however, these engines would still make an easy 300-400ft.lb, with massive spreads of torque across the rev range, and would also run indefinitely without issues - another reason for the low outputs, so the engines were massively understressed and would clock up hundreds of thousands of miles without issue or care - as the market required. These are engines that were just designed to be used, abused, and soldier on indefinitely without anything being done to them.

Many cars were specced with automatic transmissions too, where torque and low RPM ability makes for a much more pleasant and flexible drive - again another reason for the 'low RPM, high torque' stereotypes.

They were, as a result of the supportive aftermarket, also ridiculously easy to tune and with a change of intake, carb and sometimes heads, the engine could be boosted easily back up to the 300/350BHP mark - and further, without much effort.

As another example - my old L98 engined Corvettes would make 'just' 245BHP and 340ft.lb from 5.7 litres - whilst still returning sensible economy - yet are strangled by various emissions systems and 3 (!) very restrictive catalytic convertors, in order to meet the regs. Still do 60 in under 6 seconds though :D

Don't get me wrong though - they could still make powerful engines all through those periods, but they were either very special order, or very rare - ZL1 Camaro from 1969 for example, with the all-alloy ZL1 engine making 430BHP and 450ft.lb, or the ZR1 Corvette making 375BHP in the late 80s at up to 8000RPM (factory limited).

They could always make engines that revved too - not uncommon for some 8 litre (!) Hemi V8s in the 60s NASCAR series to be hitting 10,000RPM (!) at which point they apparently sounded "a bit funny" :D

You can't take these things just on face value (i.e. the classic "man, that's a poor BHP/litre/ci/etc..."), or base opinions on the typically misquoted or misuderstood 'facts' from other people :)
 
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Ah i see well thanks for that I always thought that the us didn't care about the enviroment and thought they just made everything bigger for a laugh
 
Part of it is due to the incredibly restrictive emissions in place during the late 70s/80s/90s - they have much tighter 'smog' controls over there than we do and consequently the engines are tuned, and have a vast amount of emissions systems, to meet these regulations - reducing power.

See, I don't understand this. Why not then develop more efficient and lower capacity engines to counter this? It's happening over here now, with the CO2 related tax bands, and the companies are developing lower capacity turbo engines etc, they don't just turn out a low power version of a prehistoric engine in their portfolio.

The only justification I can see is that their fuel costs are so low. If they were to rise, the companies would be forced to develop new engines.
 
They do it because in the USA service intervals are massive and a lot of time the car is just going along long straight highways. The bigger capacity engine is under less stress if it develops so little power so is less likely to go wrong.

None of that is actually true though is it..

Truth about it is the engines use antiquated technology, never got with the times and that is why imports took off, the big three are hanging on by a thread and Toyota are sitting pretty.
 
What other amazing engines does USA make?

Make or made? Or both? :)

At the moment:

- Chevrolet LS2
- Chevrolet LS3
- Chevrolet LS7
- Chevrolet LS9
- Chrysler 5.7 Hemi V8
- Cummins diesel engines (various)
- Ford 2.5L DOHC I-4 HEV
- Ford 4.6 'Modular' V8
- Ford 5.0 'Coyote' V8
- Ford 'Duratorq' diesel engines (various)
- Ford 3.5L twin turbocharged DOHC V-6
- General Motors 'Ecotec' four cylinder engines
- General Motors 3.6 litre Direct Injection V6
- General Motors 'Atlas' engines

Plus there are all the engines that are supplied aftermarket, from your venerable off-the-shelf 350ci small-block Chevrolet, to an equally off-the-shelf 2500BHP big-block Chevy :D

A few that spring to mind :)
 
See, I don't understand this. Why not then develop more efficient and lower capacity engines to counter this? It's happening over here now, with the CO2 related tax bands, and the companies are developing lower capacity turbo engines etc, they don't just turn out a low power version of a prehistoric engine in their portfolio.

The only justification I can see is that their fuel costs are so low. If they were to rise, the companies would be forced to develop new engines.

Absolutely, its down to financial reasons & legislation.

It's not been cheaper for the European manufacturers to develop and produce their 'better' engines, its been market forces and legislation that dictate this.
 
- Ford 3.5L twin turbocharged DOHC V-6
- General Motors 3.6 litre Direct Injection V6
- General Motors 'Atlas' engines

These ones are very good indeed, the FoMoCo motor especially.

Think the Northstar is still in production as well. Any engine that can run for ~100 miles with no coolant in it has to be rated pretty highly I'd have thought.
 
Ah yea, the Northstar is an awesome bit of kit - still indeed in production! Supercharged version available as well - 469hp at 6400rpm and 439ft.lb (595Nm) at 3900rpm! :D

Eight thermoplastic tubes were used in the induction system, leading to sequential fuel injection. The engine used a distributorless ignition system with a waste spark setup. The PCM controls spark and fuel injection timing as well as the shift points for the new 4T80-E transmission.

One notable feature, advertised at the time, was the "limp home" fail-safe mode which allowed the engine to continue running for a limited time without any coolant. Supplying fuel to only one cylinder bank in turn, the engine would "air cool" the inactive bank. This technique, combined with its all-aluminum construction and large oil capacity, allows the engine to maintain safe temperatures, allowing a Northstar-equipped car to be driven with no coolant for about 100 mi (161 km) without damage.

Another unusual feature of some Northstar-equipped cars is a liquid-cooled alternator used on Cadillac's Seville, DeVille, and Eldorado. The liquid-cooling helped prolong the life of the alternator in these electronic-laden models, though GM reverted to a traditional air-cooled setup for 2001 to eliminate potential leak points and extraneous tubing.

I think the Northstar dropped cylinders as well whilst cruising for economy - might be wrong there though :)

They make a 'Shortstar' too, which is a V6 one :D
 
Indeed it was - the venerable all-alloy Buick '215', which was also later the first production turbocharged engine, in the 'Jetfire' model of the Cutlass in 1962.
 
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