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[Hatter The Mad]

So consultancy firms always get 'writing specifications' wrong?

No. The project managers in the public sector get it wrong because they don't know what they are doing or have a long enough experience in their department and field. SO they hire in expensive expertise to try and understand what they want. Then, with this advice, form their specification.

I know more than you about this. Sorry, you're just plain wrong. 'Always get wrong'? Pffft!

If you are just a consultant, you cannot possibly know more about me than this particular field in public sector service delivery across many departments.

 

[scorza]

Also, personal insults are not allowed - even in GD

 

[Kill_Phil]

conservative, the best of the bad bunch. tbh i hate all MPs the majority are just leeches of society...

 

[britboy4321]

No. The project managers in the public sector get it wrong because they don't know what they are doing or have a long enough experience in their department and field. SO they hire in expensive expertise to try and understand what they want. Then, with this advice, form their specification.


If you are just a consultant, you cannot possibly know more about me than this particular field in public sector service delivery across many departments.

First, relax. Losing an argument on the internet isn't worth getting worked up about - chill!

Right - let's not forget Hatter that you said that they ALWAYS got writing specs wrong. ALWAYS. Bearing that in mind I'm afraid to say you simply, plainly, do not know what you are talking about. I can't put it any other way. I have personally, myself,been on an NHS site where the project manager's BAs did a perfectly valid project specification. It needed no amendment. It was not wrong.

You say that has never happened.

I know, 100%m for absolute fact, that is wrong. I READ THE SPEC THEY DID! With my own eyes. I was the consultant.

Argue about things you know about .. I promise you what you are saying is wrong. I promise you - I do this for a profession!

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Right - let's not forget Hatter that you said that they ALWAYS got writing specs wrong. ALWAYS. Bearing that in mind I'm afraid to say you simply, plainly, do not know what you are talking about. I can't put it any other way. I have personally, myself,been on an NHS site where the project manager's analyst's did a perfectly valid project specification.

Hold on. What size of project were you doing for the said NHS analyst?

 

[RDM]

I'm a consultant.

I thought you were a test analyst?

 

[britboy4321]

Hold on. What size of project were you doing for the said NHS analyst?

I'm not sure about my liability when it comes to client confidentiality. I see you've been re-analysing what you said yourself (others may call it back-tracking) and are going to wander off to some self invented definition of the word 'MASSIVE' argument. Kinda' weak, but predictable.

I guess your personal definition of the word 'massive' that you're about to tell us means, er, exactly big enough to just incorporate the projects for which the initial specification has been insufficient? And any that were sufficient were .. er .. not 'Hatter definition massive projects'!! Funny that! What a coincedence!

Sorry, did I steal your thunder?

Trust me, your best bet is to just say

'Ok I didn't mean ALL NHS massive projects had badly written specs by the project managers I just got carried away, but a lot do'. That would get you off pretty lightly rather then trying to batter your way through hook and crook out of an indefensibly inaccurate statement ..

 

[britboy4321]

I thought you were a test analyst?

It's good being self employed as you can kind of make up your own title.

Some call me 'contractor'. Some call me 'Consultant'. Some call me 'Test Analyst' or any combination of the above (sometimes adding 'manager' or 'senior' or 'lead'. Indeed, some call me a space cowboy.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

So you cannot tell me the size of the project because it might impinge on client confidentiality, despite not telling me who you worked for, what your name is or who commissioned the work?

Right..

 

[Hatter The Mad]

It's good being self employed as you can kind of make up your own title.

Some call me 'contractor'. Some call me 'Consultant'. Some call me 'Test Analyst' or any combination of the above (sometimes adding 'manager' or 'senior' or 'lead'. Indeed, some call me a space cowboy.

Others call you a bull*******.

 

[britboy4321]

So you cannot tell me the size of the project because it might impinge on client confidentiality, despite not telling me who you worked for, what your name is or who commissioned the work?

Right..

Way to answer the question Tex!

Probably best we move on, eh? Sorry for usurping your 'definition of massive' super-duper plan for escape. In fairness to me and all honesty, I did actually tell you the best way you could proceed to dig your way out of the hole you've dug yourself into .. seriously, read it on the last page. I wasn't 'joking' or setting you up .. (#2399)

 

[RDM]

It's good being self employed as you can kind of make up your own title.

Some call me 'contractor'. Some call me 'Consultant'. Some call me 'Test Analyst' or any combination of the above (sometimes adding 'manager' or 'senior' or 'lead'. Indeed, some call me a space cowboy.

Right, still test analyst then rather than the sort of consultant you get in at the start of a project to sort out requirements and a decent project spec. Obviously it is good project management to get your testing guys in at the start but that is a different matter altogether.

Part of the problem seems to be that for the large projects the wrong people are involved in requirements gathering, obviously most of the stuff I have worked on is much smaller scale but you really need to be talking to business experts (preferably with end user involvement too) before sorting out a requirements doc. With the civil service (and sadly it seems to be creeping in to private business too) attitude of disliking specialist managers this makes it increasingly hard to get a decent set of requirements and also makes it hard when you ask the business to review your specifications.

Way to answer the question Tex!

You dodged a question yourself so this sort of attitude is a touch hypocritical don't you think? But not unexpected considering your usual arguing style.

 

[britboy4321]

Right, still test analyst then rather than the sort of consultant you get in at the start of a project to sort out requirements and a decent project spec. Obviously it is good project management to get your testing guys in at the start but that is a different matter altogether.

Part of the problem seems to be that for the large projects the wrong people are involved in requirements gathering, obviously most of the stuff I have worked on is much smaller scale but you really need to be talking to business experts (preferably with end user involvement too) before sorting out a requirements doc. With the civil service (and sadly it seems to be creeping in to private business too) attitude of disliking specialist managers this makes it increasingly hard to get a decent set of requirements and also makes it hard when you ask the business to review your specifications.

Yea I agree, if you're 'V-lifecycle' or RAD for example (and not rubbish old waterfall) you need all involved in there from the start.. But the thing I'm saying is the Hatter bloke said that the NHS managers always get their specs wrong. That's not fair. That was emotional talk, and just not accurate. Simply a wrong statement intended to create emotional response. Don't you agree with me on that point? You shouldn't agree with Hatter on everything he says just because he is in the same political 'sphere' as you.

Bottom line - RDM - do you think that NHS managers always always always get their specs wrong for big projects? Every single time? I just want a 'Yes' or 'no' please?

 

[RDM]

Bottom line - RDM - do you think that NHS managers always always always get their specs wrong for big projects? Every single time? I just want a 'Yes' or 'no' please?

No idea. I have never worked with the NHS.

But to be accusing someone else of hyberbole when you use it yourself so often is a touch rich don't you think?

 

[bulldog147]

I am going to vote for Liberal Democrats to get the Tory and Labour out of the government for good!

 

[britboy4321]

No idea. I have never worked with the NHS.

But to be accusing someone else of hyberbole when you use it yourself so often is a touch rich don't you think?

I say stuff that is correct and true, then they say they don't believe me. When I don't produce photos (or whatever), they form conclusion I was lying. Very depressing

At the time of writing I hand-on-heart can't think of any untruths I have said in any of my 1600 odd posts ...

I found some examples of hyperbole:

Hyperbole

These books weigh a ton. (These books are heavy.)
The path went on forever. (The path was very long.)
I'm doing a million things right now. (I'm busy.)
I waited centuries for you. (I waited a long time for you.)
It took forever to get here. (It took a long time to get here.)
She ran quicker than a bullet. (She ran fast.)


Bearing that in mind, I also can't think of any examples of when I have used hyperbole - although I'd be interested if you could quote where I have .. I think when Hatter said 'All massive NHS projects are specced badly' THAT was not hyperbole, it was just an untruth. As the site I read said that hyperbole is written in a way to obviously not be taken as 'literally' by the reader ..

 

[RDM]

Bearing that in mind, I also can't think of any examples of when I have used hyperbole - although I'd be interested if you could quote where I have .. I think when Hatter said 'All massive NHS projects are specced badly' THAT was not hyperbole, it was just an untruth. As the site I read said that hyperbole is written in a way to obviously not be taken as 'literally' by the reader ..

You are using a very narrow definition of hyperbole, again, not unusal for your debating style. Hyperbole can mean any exaggeration used for effect.

What I expect now is for you to go off and come back with a link or two supporting your definition of hyperbole, stating it is correct and then asking a leading question or two to try and score points and prove yourself right. This seems to be your standard methodology rather than engaging on a debate of the spirit of the argument. Don't bother, I'm not interested in playing your games again.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Bottom line - RDM - do you think that NHS managers always always always get their specs wrong for big projects? Every single time? I just want a 'Yes' or 'no' please?

Give me a massive public IT project that did not over-run on budget and/or time. If you can find one, I'll eat my words.

 

[britboy4321]

You are using a very narrow definition of hyperbole, again, not unusal for your debating style. Hyperbole can mean any exaggeration used for effect.

What I expect now is for you to go off and come back with a link or two supporting your definition of hyperbole, stating it is correct and then asking a leading question or two to try and score points and prove yourself right. This seems to be your standard methodology rather than engaging on a debate of the spirit of the argument. Don't bother, I'm not interested in playing your games again.

howsabouts we settle this with a 1-1 'knives only' Battlefield bad company 2 sesh?

You're the one who started moanin' on about hyperbole, I just literally answered exactly what you asked me to. If I hadn't, you'd be moaning on about how I didn't answer the question. If we weren't having this conversation, you'd be moanin' on about something else to someone else. Stop moanin' ! It'll age you!

 

[britboy4321]

Give me a massive public IT project that did not over-run on budget and/or time. If you can find one, I'll eat my words.

The conversation was specifically about your 'factoid' that every single massive NHS project had been badly specced.

Also, are we using 'Hatters unspecified definition of the word 'massive''??

What is your definition of 'massive'? £50m shall we say?