Public sector pay freeze

[Richie]

People seem to be "ok" with the fact that a lot of frontline public service jobs are being cut. They also want wages to be frozen on top of that and some people even want greater pension contributions on top of that as well yet they say that this is "fair" as the private sector has had to suffer for the last year...


Can someone please direct me to a company or area in the private sector where there is a pay freeze AND bigger pension contributions AND redundancies all at the same time.

I am sure someone will easily come up with some but there is a caveat - Private sector jobs are shed due to a downturn in production/sales etc thus fewer staff are needed as they are less busy... Can you say the same about the Public Sector workload ??


Now tell me a private sector area thats being hit the way people WANT the public sector hit.

 

[cymatty]

Irrelevent point really, so does the public sector whose wages are also taxed

The public sector don't really pay tax though do they, the government pays the wages and collects money back, its more an accounting exercise than an actual revenue.

 

[[TW]Fox]

The public sector don't really pay tax though do they

Go and find a public sector employee on the same wage as you and you'll find them paying the same tax and NI as you do.

 

[cymatty]

I think every organisation should offer value for money whether public or private and should be punish all in the public sector by paying them less, for doing the same work, opposed to the private where a drop in earnings is usually because there is less work.

The public sector is a monopoly though, I cant refuse to pay NI and get treated privately for everything medical, I cant pay less council tax and have a private company collect my bins. So using demand as a measure is a bit unfair.

 

[aproctor]

Are you joking me?
What about a police officer? Fireman? Ambulance driver? Soldier?

Firstly those jobs (not sure about the ambulance driver) have the potential to earn a lot of money.

£40k for a PC after 10 years i.e. 30 years old.

Similar for firemen, who get a lot of downtime, which is fair enough considering the job and the risks, but it isn't a bad deal.

Soldiers may get less money in the short term, but many come out with a trade and very nice pension.

I have gone back through the posts and my original point was that public sector workers are not all badly paid and although there are winners and losers (as with everywhere) there are an equal number of badly paid jobs in the private sector.

As a previous poster said, workers are workers.

 

[MrMoonX]

My own experiences of prison suggest that a diversity manager job is definitely a total joke - prisoners are often racist and don't give a monkeys about political correctness, officers often "strongly dislike" almost all the prisoners (without prejudice) and frankly have enough to worry about keeping prisoners from fighting, stopping themselves being stabbed, running a wing solo at nights (and all the babysitting that entails) and dealing with all kinds of rubbish from cons without the added hassle of some stupid race relations berk telling them to be nice to ethnic groups or they'll get into trouble!

The prison service is in dire need of funding and increased headcount in areas like front line officers, education, rehab etc. and to waste £50k a year on a politically motivated non-job is just criminal. (Pardon the pun).

I really dont know how they can achieve their rehabilitation and reoffending targets when they are cutting programmes left right and centre, pulling money out of probation so no one is supervised properly once out, pulling frontline staff will lead to warehousing like in the USA. Its a joke, not to mention the form filling, paperwork before you actually are able to help people to stop offending!

 

[cymatty]

Go and find a public sector employee on the same wage as you and you'll find them paying the same tax and NI as you do.

Yes buts its purely an accounting exercise, the government pays the wage and collects the tax. You are in essence paid a tax free amount.

 

[aproctor]

The public sector is a monopoly though, I cant refuse to pay NI and get treated privately for everything medical, I cant pay less council tax and have a private company collect my bins. So using demand as a measure is a bit unfair.

True, but you could argue it is for the greater good as not everyone could afford to pay for a doctor.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Yes buts its purely an accounting exercise, the government pays the wage and collects the tax. You are in essence paid a tax free amount.

I can sort of see the point you are trying to make, but it doesnt mean what you think it means, if that makes sense.

Nobody is 'essentially paid a tax free amount'. A public sector employee is paid a taxable salary just like anyone else. It's tad more complicated than just saying the government gives money out and takes it back so its an 'accounting excercise'. I'm not even sure what you are trying to say.

 

[Le_Petit_Lapin]

pwnt.

That is all.

 

[aproctor]

The public sector don't really pay tax though do they, the government pays the wages and collects money back, its more an accounting exercise than an actual revenue.

Sorry i didn't realise my £700 a month was not real, what about my £250 car tax?

Can i have it back if you don't want it.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Firstly those jobs (not sure about the ambulance driver) have the potential to earn a lot of money.

So do loads of private sector jobs, whats your point?

Soldiers may get less money in the short term, but many come out with a trade and very nice pension.

And many die. For the country - at less than people get paid to write rotas in Clinton Cards.

I have gone back through the posts and my original point was that public sector workers are not all badly paid and although there are winners and losers (as with everywhere) there are an equal number of badly paid jobs in the private sector.

Nobody said they were badly paid, the point was simply made that most of the time its possible to earn more doing the same job in the private sector, but with the higher wages comes increased risk.

Whereas now they get the lower pay *and* the increased risk. Kinda makes you wonder what the point is.

 

[Richie]

Yes buts its purely an accounting exercise, the government pays the wage and collects the tax. You are in essence paid a tax free amount.

Ok, lets go with that... That would mean these workers get roughly 20% less wages than advertised then (taking off a rough amount for NI and Tax)

So, going by a previous post, a copper with 10 years in who gets this mystical £40K is only really on £32000.... By your theory that is.

 

[aproctor]

I'm not even sure what you are trying to say.

He is trying to say that the unemployable are given jobs in the public sector.

(they are sometimes)

 

[cymatty]

I can sort of see the point you are trying to make, but it doesnt mean what you think it means, if that makes sense.

Nobody is 'essentially paid a tax free amount'. A public sector employee is paid a taxable salary just like anyone else. It's tad more complicated than just saying the government gives money out and takes it back so its an 'accounting excercise'. I'm not even sure what you are trying to say.

Using made up figures which are not accurate, these are just for an example.

Wage £20k
Tax and NI £5k
Take home £15k

The Government pays you £20k and gets £5k back. They are therefore paying you a tax free amount, the £5k is leaving in wages and coming back in tax. It's not a £5k tax take like it would be from someone from the private sector. The Government are basically paying out £15k which is cheaper than the advertised wage.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Using made up figures which are not accurate, these are just for an example.

Wage £20k
Tax and NI £5k
Take home £15k

The Government pays you £20k and gets £5k back. They are therefore paying you a tax free amount, the £5k is leaving in wages and coming back in tax. It's not a £5k tax take like it would be from someone from the private sector.

If you wish to think about it like this - and as a result your thinking is hugely flawed - you just cut the public sector wage bill by 30%.

Congratulations!

 

[Goberpiles316]

Easy way to sort it, insted of local Councils providing services such refuse collections give it to private companies who can change you for it, residents pay £47 a year here, I would love to see a private company who can provide 52 refuse collections and 26 recycling collections for 0.60p a week. It will be a utility bill like water, gas and give us all another £1000 to find a year to pay for.

 

[Moley]

I really dont know how they can achieve their rehabilitation and reoffending targets when they are cutting programmes left right and centre, pulling money out of probation so no one is supervised properly once out, pulling frontline staff will lead to warehousing like in the USA. Its a joke, not to mention the form filling, paperwork before you actually are able to help people to stop offending!

I completely agree. In my opinion there is no way you can reduce re-offending if you don't spend time and resources on better equipping cons to actually get a job when they leave prison. This means it is imperative that money is spent on education in prison so that guys who entered prison illiterate leave being able to read to a reasonable standard - a basic essential for working nowadays. Also education should pay the same as working in the kitchens or whatever - so that people are encouraged to actually better themselves.

In addition more officers - prisons nowadays seem to be so terribly understaffed even by just ordinary officers who are often reduced to being pen pushers and administrators rather than warders.

If the resource and funding issue inside the prison walls can be dealt with and then extended outside the walls to probation we might just have a chance of reducing recidivism.

 

[cymatty]

Ok, lets go with that... That would mean these workers get roughly 20% less wages than advertised then (taking off a rough amount for NI and Tax)

So, going by a previous post, a copper with 10 years in who gets this mystical £40K is only really on £32000.... By your theory that is.

Yes, however that £32k still has to be paid for by tax receipts. If these are not coming from the private sector and general taxation then something needs to be done.

 

[aproctor]

£20k at 30 really isn't a lot of money. At all.

Firstly those jobs (not sure about the ambulance driver) have the potential to earn a lot of money.
£40k for a PC after 10 years i.e. 30 years old.

So do loads of private sector jobs, whats your point?

My original point is that the public sector is a lot better paid than it was. You said it wasn't much money.

I said it wasn't bad, you kept going, so did i.

And many die. For the country - at less than people get paid to write rotas in Clinton Cards.

Yes, i respect them for that, but they chose the job.