'Radical' prison changes.

anticonscience said:
It's extreme to say the stigma of a criminal record should be removed from society.
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Yea his Ian Huntley example was just an appeal to emotion. It's a simple debating technique intended to cloud actual logical debate with emotion. Next he'll come out with 'So you don't mind people abusing your kids then?'. He's trying to drag the argument away from the facts, by getting people 'daily mail' wound up about child abuse! lol?

As I said - just an appeal to emotion. Cheap style of argument generally laughed off when people are having serious debate .. but he seems happy enough doing it so what can I say?
 
Not at all, he was the first person I thought of.

You can apply it to any murderer/serious offender.

Take Stephen 'The Crossbow Killer' Griffiths as an example then.

Remove the stigma from his criminal record, and apply the same situation, he is given a job at your company......you are 100% ok with this?
 
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britboy4321 said:
I haven't got any kids. I'd be working with him in a professional IT environment for 8 hours. Professionals who know better than me say he he rehabilitated 100%. There are no kids ANYWHERE where I work, EVER. There is no opportunity for him to repeat any of his crimes at where I work.

If he's awesome at what he does and makes the company £600,000 per year and keeps to himself just trying to get on, and has had voluntary sterilization - you wouldn't have him?

Can hardly say you guys are dripping with entrepreneurial spirit! I guess you must live in 'daily fail' land. You're not seeing clearly as you are using emotion, and you don't understand the way to best run a business. You get the best people for the job. And don't have the daily mail on the reception room front desk! ;)

Basically - Would you buy a ferrari off him for £2000 that is worth £90,000? Yes -- lolanticonscience? So why's that any different from doing any other business with him?

lol?
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Well given that I am an entrepreneur you couldn't be more wrong. You wouldn't have any business if people knew Ian Huntly was working for you. Plus I wouldn't have anything to do with the **** and no I wouldn't buy a Ferrari off him for £2k.

Edit: I agree it's an extreme example but I think you are just trying to be awkward about it with your bizarre response.
 
anticonscience said:
Not at all, he was the first person I thought of.

You can apply it to any murderer/serious offender.
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So the BBC were wrong to employ Leslie Grantham (Dirty Den) and you'd have walked off the job in disgust if you worked there??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Grantham

He should have been unemployed for the rest of his life, leading him to either claim dole or commit crime or both for him money?

That's your plan? Awesome ..
 
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Jambo said:
Well given that I am an entrepreneur you couldn't be more wrong. You wouldn't have any business if people knew Ian Huntly was working for you. Plus I wouldn't have anything to do with the **** and no I wouldn't buy a Ferrari off him for £2k.
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I'm surprised you're still in business if you'd pass up £88,000 profit on a 1 day, 1 person deal because the seller has an old criminal conviction you don't like. You never have to see him again, and he's the one losing £88,000 on the deal. With your comment I have to think, are you really an entrepreneur - or do you actually rent out 1 house and design the odd website for £660 and that's about it? ( :) )

Good luck with business. Allan Sugar would be turning in his grave, er, if he was dead!
 
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britboy4321 said:
I'm surprised you're still in business if you'd pass up £88,000 profit on a 1 day, 1 person deal because the seller has an old criminal conviction. You never have to see him again.

Good luck with business. Allan Sugar would be turning in his grave, er, if he was dead!
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But I don't live in your fantasy land. Ian Huntly wouldn't make anyone £88k a day. He would only lose you business.

britboy4321 said:
With your comment I have to think, are you really an entrepreneur - or do you actually rent out 1 house and design the odd website for £660 and that's about it? ( :) )
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Nice assumption which is miles off the mark.

You make out like entrepreneurs have no morals.
 
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Let's be honest, Huntley would be attacked by at least one of his new work colleagues.
Just because there are no kids there, doesn't mean everyone in the business is childless and devoid of emotion.
 
I think you are the one living in a fantasy world britboy.

It just wouldn't work at all, even with the best intentions. People would not have any dealings in a normal business relationship with murderers/serious offenders.

Oh and does Leslie Grantham fall into any of those catergories? Yes he did some pretty strange stuff but he hardly murdered anyone/raped anyone did he? He was just disgraced for having sexual perversions.
 
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anticonscience said:
Remove the stigma of a criminal record? Are you crazy?
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Nope, absolutely not. What IS crazy is a society that stigmatises people, then fails to help them build up the requisite skills to become productive members of society, fails to help them find work upon leaving and then criticises them for going back to criminal activity!
:eek:
 
anticonscience said:
I think you are the one living in a fantasy world britboy.

It just wouldn't work at all, even with the best intentions.
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He works from home, never coming into the office, using the internet to trade £200,000 of my money in stocks and shares.

He seems to have a natural ability, and makes me £5000 a month on average in profits.

I pay him £18,000 a year. And take the rest and spend it on PC games and beer. He never even comes into the office. There is no need for us to meet face to face ever.

You'd fire him?
 
anticonscience said:
Ok, so take someone like Ian Huntley for example. We remove the stigma of the criminal record, would you be ok if your company employed him?

As it's the socially responsible thing to do.
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Don't be daft - we are talking about people who will be released back into the community and therefore have the chance to either re-offend or work. Huntley is a poor example and you know it.
 
By your logic, I could go out right now and pop a cap in some guys ass and not worry about the consequences because a criminal record would be like a slap on the wrist? :eek: :confused:

That 4) rule is just not going to work... :rolleyes:
 
Moley said:
Don't be daft - we are talking about people who will be released back into the community and therefore have the chance to either re-offend or work. Huntley is a poor example and you know it.
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Ahhh so you have a two tiered system of discrimation against convicts?

And let's face it, the way the system is heading they would be able to sue the CPS for such discrimination.

Point 4 is just not workable. Can you imagine how mad it would get if people didn't have to worry about a criminal record?

You would over night, have people carrying out justice on their own. Look at the amount of threads on this very forum where people who have been wronged would dish out punishment/violence against others.

Serve your time for kicking someone almost to death, then get released and get a decent job again. Great.
 
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Blackhawk47 said:
By your logic, I could go out right now and pop a cap in some guys ass and not worry about the consequences because a criminal record would be like a slap on the wrist? :eek: :confused:

That 4) rule is just not going to work... :rolleyes:
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No .. it should go like this

1) You serve your sentence
2) You get the chance to turn into a normal law-abiding citizen

NOT

1) You serve your sentence
2) You are demonised by society forever so have no choice but to claim benefits forever, do more crime, or some combination of the above.
 
Simi said:
Your list sounds really nice but I can't see how it would be actioned.
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You clearly have no actual experience of prison and no imagination. I have both and can see that not only are my ideas feasible (given funding and effort) but in all likelihood absolutely necessary to produce real radical change in the offending rates in our country.

:p
 
Jambo said:
Oh is Ian Huntly selling a £90k Ferrari for £2k? I didn't realise. :rolleyes:

I think I'll stop wasting my time on this one.
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Indeed you should. Saying you'd pass on that theoretical business deal kinda fatally makes a mockery of your 'I'm an awesome entrepreneur, and I would never deal with Huntley ever' argument TBH :) In business terms, the 2 facts are mutually exclusive.
 
anticonscience said:
Ahhh so you have a two tiered system of discrimation against convicts?

And let's face it, the way the system is heading they would be able to sue the CPS for such discrimination.

Point 4 is just not workable.
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Isn't the whole justice system tiered? Violent criminals are punished more harshly than petty criminals.
Should a rapist / murderer be held in the same regard as some kid who steals a car stereo?
 
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