The VAT rise.

[Dolph]

And please tell us just how many governments have you LIVED your adult life through?

How is that relevant? all the historical data is available to see what various governments did to the country, who made the mistakes, who cleaned up the mess, who got blamed is all clearly laid out.

I am at least proud that I have never voted Labour.

 

[Floogie]

When Labour stop being the root cause of the problems under discussion, I'll stop blaming them.

I know it would be more convenient for some to pretend labour were perfect and the coalition are evil, but it's a complete fantasy.

To paraphrase a similar American saying: If a chasm opened up underneath Westminister, no doubt you'd argue it was Labour's fault.

You might be obsessed with peddling that tired narrative, but I'd hope most people here realise the issue is far more complex. Yes, Labour's spending didn't help, but they are only so much to blame as Thatcher and American greed.

 

[deuse]

How is that relevant, all the historical data is available.

See this where you go wrong. You say "historical data" you mean a few people that ask even fewer people what they thought about things at that time.

Yes Dolph you can wiki this and that BUT you never lived through it so you have no idea at all.

Living through something gives you more knowledge the reading about it. FACT.

EDIT=Not fast enough with your edit Dolph

 

[Dolph]

To paraphrase a similar American saying: If a chasm opened up underneath Westminister, no doubt you'd argue it was Labour's fault.

You might be obsessed with peddling that tired narrative, but I'd hope most people here realise the issue is far more complex. Yes, Labour's spending didn't help, but they are only so much to blame as Thatcher and American greed.

Labour's spending didn't help??? When we're discussing taxation and the budget, Labour's spending is the single biggest problem.

The economy rises and falls, but only a bunch of complete idiots continue to spend more than they are taking in throughout the whole cycle.

If labour had been practicing good economics during the good times, we could have afforded to protect ourselves in the bad. Instead, they wasted billions employing people we didn't need, to do jobs that were unnnecessary, and resulted in no useful benefit and supression of the wealth creating private sector.

 

[Dolph]

See this where you go wrong. You say "historical data" you mean a few people that ask even fewer people what they thought about things at that time.

Yes Dolph you can wiki this and that BUT you never lived through it so you have no idea at all.

Living through something gives you more knowledge the reading about it. FACT.

EDIT=Not fast enough with your edit Dolph

Anecdotal fallacy as opposed to statistical evidence? I know where my thoughts go on that one.

Living through something gives you a different perspective, not more knowledge, indeed the former can actually ensure you don't get the latter if your perception is skewed enough.

 

[Captain_Slick]

The point is not whether or not Labour helped or didn't help with the current economic crisis, Dolph, it's more that everyone is finding your incessant posting about it rather tiresome to the point that nobody now cares about Labour being bad and evil.

 

[Dolph]

The point is not whether or not Labour helped or didn't help with the current economic crisis, Dolph, it's more that everyone is finding your incessant posting about it rather tiresome to the point that nobody cares about Labour being bad and evil.

I find the labour apologists tiresome, it's a discussion forum though, so we all get to put our points across.

Indeed, the only people who have pulled me up on it are labour apologists who try and blame everything on the new government instead of putting the blame where it is due, and are still blaming Thatcher for clearing up the mess labour left last time.

 

[Jonny69]

Ugh. A £100 purchase is going to cost £2.50 more. I think I might go bankrupt.

But oh wait, what about that time they reduced VAT by 2.5%. Did people not save their £2.50's back then?

 

[Repta]

About £21...

thats a weeks food and some beer to me

 

[Energize]

But oh wait, what about that time they reduced VAT by 2.5%. Did people not save their £2.50's back then?

No because prices weren't actually reduced, if you hadn't noticed. The VAT drop didn't affect consumers because business didn't pass it on, that was never the intention of the cut.

 

[mavers]

As it has been mentioned in the thread the three taxes that generate the most revenue are income tax, NI and VAT. With such a budget deficit i'd rather they up VAT then income tax or NI.

 

[daz]

With the increase in personal allowance, most people earning up to around £20k per year will be better off. £24k is about the break even point given a "typical" pattern of expenditure.

I suppose the people this mainly affects are those who work full time and live with their parents with their entire monthly salary as disposable income. For every one else with rent, mortgages, other bills that are zero or lower rated, the VAT increase is a very small proportion of what you'll spend in a month.

 

[Dolph]

No because prices weren't actually reduced, if you hadn't noticed. The VAT drop didn't affect consumers because business didn't pass it on, that was never the intention of the cut.

Probably 90% of the companies I use passed on the cut on fixed price (or reasonably fixed price) items or services

The ones that didn't were the small businesses, not the large corporations in most cases.

 

[Captain_Slick]

I find the labour apologists tiresome, it's a discussion forum though, so we all get to put our points across.

Indeed, the only people who have pulled me up on it are labour apologists who try and blame everything on the new government instead of putting the blame where it is due, and are still blaming Thatcher for clearing up the mess labour left last time.

What? Nobody has done that. Put down the burning Labour membership card and go away. You brought it up first by mentioning it first because that's all you seem to do these days and it's boring, nobody cares what you think and more importantly, blathering on about it isn't going to solve anything.

 

[Energize]

Probably 90% of the companies I use passed on the cut

I didn't realise every person in the UK fits your exact spending profile utilising the same businesses, my apologies.

 

[mavers]

Probably 90% of the companies I use passed on the cut

Small businesses (restaurateurs etc) seemed to use it as an excuse to profit. Was nice to see the change reflected in my mobile bill (saved about a quid a month )

 

[Dolph]

What? Nobody has done that. Put down the burning Labour membership card and go away. You brought it up first by mentioning it first because that's all you seem to do these days and it's boring, nobody cares what you think and more importantly, blathering on about it isn't going to solve anything.

I take it you haven't read many of Deuse's or floogie's posts in political threads in the past...

 

[Dolph]

I didn't realise every person in the UK fits your exact spending profile utilising the same businesses, my apologies.

So can we both admit we've presented anecdotes rather than evidence and move on?

 

[Fr0dders]

See this where you go wrong. You say "historical data" you mean a few people that ask even fewer people what they thought about things at that time.

Yes Dolph you can wiki this and that BUT you never lived through it so you have no idea at all.

Living through something gives you more knowledge the reading about it. FACT.

EDIT=Not fast enough with your edit Dolph

Except it doesnt.

We have no more idea of the governments true deficit than the people in 20 years will. The reason why ? because everything you know currently in terms of the state of the public finances, the debt, the money wasted etc.. has come from the newspapers

The same newspapers that will be available in 20 years time.

What do you exactly experience that has any baring on the quality of a government.

All you can do is bang on about how you'll never forgive the tories for how hard you had it under thatcher because of the poll tax. We can see quite clearly from the papers at the time what it was like, just we dont have any emotions getting in the way of making a clear and unbiased oppinions, which people who bang on about how bad it was under thatcher, and (in my gran's case, under the tory government during the great depression in the 30s) do

We can make clear assessments with the benefit of hindsight, as to whether those decisions were justified or not.

If your basing your judgement on hard done by you felt during the thatcher years, your not going to be making the same unbiased oppinions, because your oppinions will be formed solely from your experiences of how bad you thought it was back then.

 

[Captain_Slick]

I take it you haven't read many of Deuse's or floogie's posts in political threads in the past...

So? If everything everyone ever posted was continually discussed in following threads this place would be a nightmare.