London police arent allowed to use sniffer dogs on muslims

[Narj]

Small point, but I think divorce in the UK between Jewish couples is handled in a Jewish court settlement. Its an arrangement between our legal system and some system based within their religion.
I am sure someone here will be able to state the exact situation.
Still nothing to do with the OP.

Oops, sorry... went with the flow and should have paid attention.

If that's the case, then surely their marriages can't be recognised by UK law if they can be annulled outside of it? Still.. divorce law delegation is a bit different to some of the possible punishments that could be dished out by a sharia court. Anyhow - apologies for going OT!

 

[Dolph]

Oops, sorry... went with the flow and should have paid attention.

If that's the case, then surely their marriages can't be recognised by UK law if they can be annulled outside of it? Still.. divorce law delegation is a bit different to some of the possible punishments that could be dished out by a sharia court. Anyhow - apologies for going OT!

It is a form of arbitration. In the UK you can agree arbitration on an issue using just about any terms or logic you like as long as both sides agree. The 'Sharia courts' are just the same thing.

The Beth Din (jewish court) has been around for over 50 years in the UK.

 

[Narj]

It is a form of arbitration. In the UK you can agree arbitration on an issue using just about any terms or logic you like as long as both sides agree. The 'Sharia courts' are just the same thing.

The Beth Din (jewish court) has been around for over 50 years in the UK.

So going by that logic, common sense should prevail, and anything over than a trivial matter should never be delegated to such a court. ie: trial for an offence that could result in capital punishment by their own rules/laws would never be allowed in a Sharia or other similar court?

Just wondering how this gets agreed and what the criteria for arbitration is? I think it's a bit of a cop-out to be honest, and it's more to do with lessening the workload of the courts.

Cheers for clearing at least some of that up.

EDIT: Wikipedia says:

A beth din is required or preferred for the following matters:
Validation of religious bills of divorce (get, pl. gittin).
Kosher certification of restaurants and food manufacturers (Hechsher).
Examination of shochetim and the control of the shechita inspectors
Conversions to Judaism with at least one member of the court being a rabbi who is an expert on the laws of conversion.
Supervising the building and maintenance of a mikvah.
Determination of "personal status" (i.e. whether someone is a Jew according to halakha).
The authorization and supervision of mohelim.
Questions relating to burial practices and mourning.

Sounds fair enough to me - a UK court wouldn't be able to do many of those things IMO. I don't really see them as matters of law apart from the divorce part (and then that's a matter of whether the marriage is recognised by UK law).

 

[RDM]

So going by that logic, common sense should prevail, and anything over than a trivial matter should never be delegated to such a court. ie: trial for an offence that could result in capital punishment by their own rules/laws would never be allowed in a Sharia or other similar court?

As a court of arbitration they would have no power to enforce any such punishments. The Government still holds the monopoly of force so any such punishments would be illegal and carry criminal charges.

Just wondering how this gets agreed and what the criteria for arbitration is? I think it's a bit of a cop-out to be honest, and it's more to do with lessening the workload of the courts.

It is something that has been enshrined in English law for, well centuries I believe. Two parties can use pretty much anything for arbitration if they both agree.

 

[Dolph]

So going by that logic, common sense should prevail, and anything over than a trivial matter should never be delegated to such a court. ie: trial for an offence that could result in capital punishment by their own rules/laws would never be allowed in a Sharia or other similar court?

Just wondering how this gets agreed and what the criteria for arbitration is? I think it's a bit of a cop-out to be honest, and it's more to do with lessening the workload of the courts.

Cheers for clearing at least some of that up.

EDIT: Wikipedia says:

A beth din is required or preferred for the following matters:
Validation of religious bills of divorce (get, pl. gittin).
Kosher certification of restaurants and food manufacturers (Hechsher).
Examination of shochetim and the control of the shechita inspectors
Conversions to Judaism with at least one member of the court being a rabbi who is an expert on the laws of conversion.
Supervising the building and maintenance of a mikvah.
Determination of "personal status" (i.e. whether someone is a Jew according to halakha).
The authorization and supervision of mohelim.
Questions relating to burial practices and mourning.

Sounds fair enough to me - a UK court wouldn't be able to do many of those things IMO. I don't really see them as matters of law apart from the divorce part (and then that's a matter of whether the marriage is recognised by UK law).

Both sides of any civil dispute can choose arbitration at any point, it's just that many people don't. That arbitration can be on whatever basis they will agree on, from Jewish scripture and tradition to a game of ker-plunk.

 

[LabR@t]

I'm Muslim and I'm sick of hearing it too. Every other Dispatches program on C4 is somehow on "Islam/Muslim/Extremism" blah, blah, blah.

Its pretty much the biggest threat to this country at the moment, or for europe or the western world as a whole so I would get used to it as the problem is not going to be going away any time soon.

 

[Dolph]

Its pretty much the biggest threat to this country at the moment, or for europe or the western world as a whole so I would get used to it as the problem is not going to be going away any time soon.

And I was sure it was poor education, lack of rationality and general declining intelligence compared to the rest of the world...

Or is that only certain sections of the population?

 

[LabR@t]

I reckon that those who are most vocal are the people in regions that have been subject to high levels of immigration. Where I live has had an increasing amount of immigrants in recent years, but I suppose at least they are from nations not famed for extremism or nutters. There's not really any social friction, and I've always lived around Sikhs/Hindus who have integrated well.

If I had been living in Luton for the past 50 years, I might be leaning more towards the DirtyDog wagon. I sometimes wonder if many people who say that the immigration issue is a myth are those living in areas where their next door neighbours are several hundred yards away...

I do agree that we shouldn't pander to minorities. We are a modern, tolerant society but I must admit that it annoys me when we bend over backwards to whichever tiny group shouts the loudest... I can't remember when Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and Taoists last started kicking up a stink wanting their own courts and so forth (unless I missed something). I work with a few Muslim guys who are pretty westernised actually, and it does puzzle me why the loony minority can't just put up or move away to a country that works the way they want it to.

You speak the truth.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Its pretty much the biggest threat to this country at the moment,

Really?

In the last 20 years, 52 people have been killed by Islamic extremeists in this country.

In the same period, more than 50,000 people have been killed in car accidents, just under 300 have been killed in rail accidents, in 2009 alone 41,000 men were killed by heart disease.

Yet you think the biggest threat to this country is Islam?

 

[mrk]

Really?

In the last 20 years, 52 people have been killed by Islamic extremeists in this country.

In the same period, more than 50,000 people have been killed in car accidents, just under 300 have been killed in rail accidents, in 2009 alone 41,000 men were killed by heart disease.

Yet you think the biggest threat to this country is Islam?

No point wasting valuable post counts on the highly researched and expert opinions of some in these threads dude

 

[LabR@t]

And I was sure it was poor education, lack of rationality and general declining intelligence compared to the rest of the world...

Or is that only certain sections of the population?

Are you denying Islamic extremists is not a big threat to western countries?

The 1000's killed by the terrorists beg to differ!

The 100,000's killed in a war to stop the spread of Islamic Extremism beg to differ!

You may be more educated than myself but your still ass.

 

[Raz]

There's nothing wrong with objecting to certain customs or laws by Muslims in the UK. I'm sure people here realise that the UK hasn't always been this way, and it's part of social evolution. However, I do think that it's relatively easy for Muslims to be practising and live in this country without any problems. There are very few clashes between Islam and living in the west - but when the law changes to stop Muslims from practising problems arise.

The Quran makes it clear that if the situation is difficult then Muslims are obliged to emmigrate to a Muslim state. Sounds easy, but the lack of Muslim unity means that this is a barrier for most people - nationalism overrides the Musim Ummah unfortunately and something Muslim leaders are lacking.

Of course, I'm sure the western world would not be too enthusiastic about a single Muslim nation.

 

[CaptainComedy]

troll thread is full of troll. by the time I got to page 3 there was a page 10.

when logic and reason don't work, there's a troll a-foot!

 

[ak22]

what other religion is blowing innocent children and women up on a regular basis?heck they even doing it to themselves.

Glad I am not so stupid to have my head filled with such nonsense.

You say you are glad that you are not so stupid of having your head filled with such nonsense?

Where does it say in Quarn to about killing innocent people?

This is What it says you retard "if you kill one person unjustly as if you killed the whole humanity, and if you saved once person as if you saved the whole humanity"

Just because some on the news says Muslim means they are? Or because they parents are Muslims or they from Muslim background ?

Before you post retard comments Educate yourself I have Muslims friends Jewish, Christian orthodox & Catholic I try to learn there beliefs If you learn might not be Speaking such nonsense.

 

[RDM]

The Quran makes it clear that if the situation is difficult then Muslims are obliged to emmigrate to a Muslim state. Sounds easy, but the lack of Muslim unity means that this is a barrier for most people - nationalism overrides the Musim Ummah unfortunately and something Muslim leaders are lacking.

Are you sure it may not have more to do with the fact that most muslim nations aren't all that great for the average person to live in and quite a few muslims would prefer the freedoms and quality of life they have living in even the infidel west?

 

[ak22]

What war would that be?

 

[Deleted member 54091]

troll thread is full of troll. by the time I got to page 3 there was a page 10.

when logic and reason don't work, there's a troll a-foot!

I come back to this thread and I see the usual suspects still typing nonsense.

Twoblacklines likes living a fictional life, where special need employers try to jeopardise their business by telling someone they will pay him below minimum wage.

All we need now is platinum to join this thread

 

[RDM]

You say you are glad that you are not so stupid of having your head filled with such nonsense?

Where does it say in Quarn to about killing innocent people?

This is What it says you retard "if you kill one person unjustly as if you killed the whole humanity, and if you saved once person as if you saved the whole humanity"

Just because some on the news says Muslim means they are? Or because they parents are Muslims or they from Muslim background ?

Before you post retard comments Educate yourself I have Muslims friends Jewish, Christian orthodox & Catholic I try to learn there beliefs If you learn might not be Speaking such nonsense.

The "These people are not real muslims" line gets a bit tiring after a while. They certainly believe they are, many other muslims believe they are. Whilst certainly not representative of muslims in general you do yourself no favours and will never really stop the problem if your deny they have anything at all to do with Islam.

 

[CD32]

Really?

In the last 20 years, 52 people have been killed by Islamic extremeists in this country.

In the same period, more than 50,000 people have been killed in car accidents, just under 300 have been killed in rail accidents, in 2009 alone 41,000 men were killed by heart disease.

Yet you think the biggest threat to this country is Islam?

Of course it is. It is to the non-islamic population born & bred here thru generations anyway. Your facts & figures dragged up from god knows where are meaningless. & if you can't see what is happening to this Country slowly but surely then you are either in denial or just defiant to the truth to the end. I suggest you re-read my post earlier, ie, UNDERSTAND why feelings are running high instead of putting a brick wall up to those who are sick to death of Islam & assuming we are all Bigots/racists etc.

I forgot to add, it's not all about killings you know.

(apologies for hijacking what was for your attn labr@t.)

 

[Dolph]

Are you denying Islamic extremists is not a big threat to western countries?

In the grand scheme of things, yes I am. There are a far greater number of problems likely to affect life in the west before islamic extremism.

The 1000's killed by the terrorists beg to differ!

I'm sure they do, but their numbers are tiny

The 100,000's killed in a war to stop the spread of Islamic Extremism beg to differ!

Which war would this be? The stupid one or the illegal one?

You may be more educated than myself but your still ass.

My education level isn't the issue in this thread... I'm not making **** up as I go along

May I suggest you go and study this diagram.