Education & faith

[muon]

No, I don't.

So how do you plan on stopping Islamic lessons outside of the curriculum in schools? Arbitrarily pick on the schools with high percentages of religious students/teachers?

Btw, I am all for controlling extra-curricular activities in schools. If you want religious indoctrination in your school, you have to be independent, that's my opinion.

 

[The Halk]

So how do you plan on stopping Islamic lessons outside of the curriculum in schools? Arbitrarily pick on the schools with high percentages of religious students/teachers?

Simply ensure that schools are told to keep any religion to optional extra-curricular activity, outside of normal school times.

Would that not work in a broad way?

 

[muon]

Simply ensure that schools are told to keep any religion to optional extra-curricular activity, outside of normal school times.

Would that not work in a broad way?

Normal school times actually defined? Seems like a convoluted way of simply removing religion from schools. Why not just remove religion from schools.

 

[Glaucus]

Clues in the name faith not fact, I think like most people, you're getting your knickers in a twist over what you think happens rather than reality due to your own helices which indoctrinate people in to atheism. Science is taught as fact, very few Peope properly understand science and it's certainly not taught in school to dumb it down.

 

[ChroniC]

How you going to stop parents indoctrinating kids? And I'm not just talk religion /atheist. Parent indoctrinate everything from morale to personality. These arguments in purpose, indoctrination and all the usual arguments are stupid.

There function is to provide education and allow religious practice/education, re does not reach anything useful.

Yes, that is there practice, but do you not think that religion should be separate from state matters, and that it should be taught in their free time, in a specialist facility (i.e church, synagogue, Sunday school etc)
Why is a school any more different than having Muslim hospital or Jewish police stations, in fact its a million times worse, because its were the child is taught and most impressionable.
Religions want religious schools, because they are terrified if children learn without being brainwashed they might realise for themselves that their are other options that don't fit in with their doctrine. Its a form for control.

 

[Monkey Puzzle]

Well, I doubt publicly funded schools are allowed to do this in official national curriculum teaching. You want to start controlling extra-curricular activities in schools? Start banning Christian Union activities, or Islamic societies?

I agree with the Halk - it's not the place of schools to feed kids beliefs before they are at the point to understand what they're being told. Religion and education should be separate. Religions enjoy far too much say in education, including permanent unelected seats on local council education committees for one...

 

[muon]

Yes, that is there practice, but do you not think that religion should be separate from state matters, and that it should be taught in their free time, in a specialist facility (i.e church, synagogue, Sunday school etc)
Why is a school any more different than having Muslim hospital or Jewish police stations.

That is a whole different debate of which school is only one aspect.

edit:

Again, i'm all for separation. I just don't believe most people are or that its practical.

edit2:

Should clarify, I'm not saying ala France we should ban religious symbols and public religious expression even in schools. But that probably destroys all attempts for separation, hence for liberty reasons it isn't possible?

 

[Glaucus]

Why? Schools have to follow education and parents decide, it acheives nothing by seperating them.

 

[The Halk]

Clues in the name faith not fact, I think like most people, you're getting your knickers in a twist over what you think happens rather than reality due to your own helices which indoctrinate people in to atheism. Science is taught as fact, very few Peope properly understand science and it's certainly not taught in school to dumb it down.

I strongly disagree with the little lies that children are taught in science class too. It would not be so difficult to tell them "We explain that it works this way, although in reality it is much more complex. We explain it this way because the end effect for this purpose is the same"

 

[ChroniC]

Why? Schools have to follow education and parents decide, it acheives nothing by seperating them.

Once again, then choose to have your child educated else where at specific religious classes. However in a facility that caters for a wide variety of religions, emphasising one is doing exactly that separating the children.
Seperate the education/state and the religion, and the children/adults can mix of all different faiths treated all the same, especially since if education is important, why is once subject emphasised. I cannot choose to go to an art school untill i am taught every other subject, so why can i choose to go to a religious school before I have.
To me having schools for muslims and schools for christians, is no different than having different toilets, or different laws.

 

[Glaucus]

Why seperate it again what does it acheive?
Religious schools will allow prayer and customs. The does not affect the curriculum and it allows the religion to. Be taught you can't learns religion in a life time.

So what does your purposal achieve whilst justifying restrictions of parents rights.

 

[The Halk]

Why seperate it again what does it acheive?
Religious schools will allow prayer and customs. The does not affect the curriculum and it allows the religion to. Be taught you can't learns religion in a life time.

So what does your purposal achieve whilst justifying restrictions of parents rights.

You're saying the reason not to separate religion from education is that it doesn't do any harm?

What about from the other direction then? Why allow it? What good does it do?

 

[muon]

You're saying the reason not to separate religion from education is that it doesn't do any harm?

What about from the other direction then? Why allow it? What good does it do?

Liberty. Things don't need to be good for it to be allowed.

Secondly, religion does no good?

 

[Glaucus]

Stuff should not be banned for no reason,, you need a good and valid readon to ban something, you haven't showen one reason yet, other than hate. How about private or boarding schools, going to restrict them?

 

[ChroniC]

Why seperate it again what does it acheive?
Religious schools will allow prayer and customs. The does not affect the curriculum and it allows the religion to. Be taught you can't learns religion in a life time.

So what does your purposal achieve whilst justifying restrictions of parents rights.

Because you creating a cluster of people who are not becoming part of society, you are not creating a multicultural society, you are creating boundaries, ones that will become stronger the longer it last.
We don't have schools for blacks and whites, yellows or reds because were the same, we should not have schools for muslims, jews, or christians for the same reason.
Go teach 1000 children from school A that the other 1000 children from school B are wrong and should be viewed with contempt and then see how that works out, or mix the two together and teach both sides of the story as possibilites that you can neither prove or disproves hope they choose to get along.

 

[muon]

Because you creating a cluster of people who are not becoming part of society, you are not creating a multicultural society, you are creating boundaries, ones that will become stronger the longer it last.
We don't have schools for blacks and whites, yellows or reds because were the same, we should not have schools for muslims, jews, or christians for the same reason.

How does a school provide extra provisions for blacks/whites etc. The analogy doesn't work.

As for not becoming part of society, that very well may be the case. But it is a weak argument, since proving it is impossible. I suggest you see if you can convince the Archbishop of Canterbury, for example, of your line of though.

 

[Glaucus]

Because you creating a cluster of people who are not becoming part of society, you are not creating a multicultural society, you are creating boundaries, ones that will become stronger the longer it last.
We don't have schools for blacks and whites, yellows or reds because were the same, we should not have schools for muslims, jews, or christians for the same reason.
Go teach 1000 children from school A that the other 1000 children from school B are wrong and should be viewed with contempt and then see how that works out, or mix the two together and teach both sides of the story as possibilites that you can neither prove or disproves hope they choose to get along.

You aren't segragating as anyone can go to the school, just look at CoE. Never heard anyone wanting to ban boarding schools on grounds of segragation between rich and poor.
No one can come up with a valid readon to ban, that shows us a lot about general mind set and how people are basin it on their beliefs rather than evidence.

 

[ChroniC]

How does a school provide extra provisions for blacks/whites etc. The analogy doesn't work.

As for not becoming part of society, that very well may be the case. But it is a weak argument, since proving it is impossible. I suggest you see if you can convince the Archbishop of Canterbury, for example, of your line of though.

Put simpler.
How does religion help in the education of
Maths - It doesnt
Art - It doesnt
Chemistry - It doesnt
etc etc

So why when 95% of the subjects do not require religion as a necessity except religious education itself, should it be a reason to create a divide between one type of child and another, which then could have a knock on effect which later down the line manifests as racial hatred.

 

[Andy]

People are naturally scared and intimidated by that they do not know. Having seperate educational institutes only leads to the suggestion that there is a difference in the people who attend them, surely this breeds fear and hatred?

 

[Glaucus]

What divide? Can you show divide from current faith schools?
Again nothing ever should be banned unless support by facts of a good reason.