Poll: DELETED_74993

Were we right to get involved in Libya?

  • Yes

    Votes: 306 50.9%

  • No

    Votes: 295 49.1%
  • Total voters
    601
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Decent analysis of post-SDR UK Armed Forces contribution to Libya operations here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/25/libya_analysis/

Where to start with this one.

Point four: The decisions taken over many years to whittle down the Harrier force to the point where it was barely viable – and then finally axe it in the Review – were totally wrong. Instead the Tornado should have been scrapped. Our present-day fleet of more than 130 of these cripplingly expensive-to-run, slow, lumbering low-altitude jets, assisted by similarly costly tanker planes, has offered us an utterly pathetic capability to deliver three or four dodgy missiles into Libya and a minimalist air support capability thereafter.

Even by the time of the Review, when the Harrier fleet was down to an almost unviable 44 jets, it would have made more sense to keep them, scrap the Tornado and buy or lease some nice cheap F-18s from America to bulk up our strike forces somewhat. The RAF should be ashamed of itself for manipulating the Prime Minister into keeping Tornado; heads should roll.
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Can't disagree, aircraft carriers are probably the most relevant capability to the current conflicts we're involved in at the moment. True we're getting new ones, but I believe they won't have any planes to fly from them until a few years after the carriers come into service - surely the Harrier could have been kept going until then?

Point six: The decision to keep well over half of our armour/artillery forces in the recent Review was a needless waste of money. Tank, reconnaissance (that is, light tank) and heavy artillery regiments should either be got rid of entirely or reduced to a single brigade's worth (ie one of each). This would free up tens of thousands of personnel billets and huge amounts of budget for more cost-effective formations. We might get to the point where the British Army could put as many troops into combat as the US Marines can
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My emphasis. Before the SDR I thought they might disband the RAF and amalgamate its capabilities into the Fleet Air Arm and Army Air Corps. Now I'm thinking maybe the answer is actually to have one armed force instead of two or three? This armed force to be run along the same lines as the USMC.

Most shamefully of all, the Coalition has slashed – and may now cancel altogether – an order for vital Chinook helicopters that would let our troops fight safely and effectively in Afghanistan (or anywhere else). Even though we don't manage to send many troops to war because we keep so many at home polishing tanks, the ones we do send are hamstrung by their lack of choppers.
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In opposition, the Conservatives rightly gave the government a savage beating about the lack of helicopters in Afghanistan. What a shame that they decided not to resolve this crucial issue.
 
USMC is a very good model for a modern small tactical army

As for Chinook, I would prefer we go for the smaller Blackhawks or similar as they are arguably better for small tactical units (as a USMC/Special Forces setup would be)
 
in a war between libya and france before america bombed libya to hell i bet libya would kick there arse...

france is the little boy in the playground hiding behind the bigger boys while shouting "i am teh man"
 
arknor said:
in a war between libya and france before america bombed libya to hell i bet libya would kick there arse...

france is the little boy in the playground hiding behind the bigger boys while shouting "i am teh man"
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Nonsense. France have a significant and well trained Armed Forces. Libya does/did not.

Sterotypes may be funny, but they are rarely, if ever actually accurate.
 
ubersonic said:
The pilots of the crashed F15 were rescued by rebels who then threw a party for them, then the USAF rescue helicopter showed up and opened fire on them thinking they were threatening the pilots, maiming a child and killing a few others
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get your facts right because thats not even close to what happened



on another note. i have been speaking to libyans today at an anti gaddafi protest in our town , the only civillian casualties they seem upset about are the thousands that gaddafi has caused/ordered
 
arknor said:
in a war between libya and france before america bombed libya to hell i bet libya would kick there arse...

france is the little boy in the playground hiding behind the bigger boys while shouting "i am teh man"
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That charge would be more accurate levelled at the UK, at least France has the balls to stand up to the US from time to time.
 
scorza said:
Decent analysis of post-SDR UK Armed Forces contribution to Libya operations here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/25/libya_analysis/

Where to start with this one.

HARRIER LINK

Can't disagree, aircraft carriers are probably the most relevant capability to the current conflicts we're involved in at the moment. True we're getting new ones, but I believe they won't have any planes to fly from them until a few years after the carriers come into service - surely the Harrier could have been kept going until then?
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They would have been a bit wasted in this current situation IMHO. My reasons -

Firstly they can't launch Storm Shadow (Cruise Missile to take out C&C bunkers), ALARM (anti-radar missile) or Brimstone II (anti-vehicle/artillery etc missile)

Secondly if they'd used the carriers they'd have had to launch with a reduced number of weapons due to weight. They'd have been used from Gioia Del Colle (a runway - which they used for Kosovo) and, due to the distances involved, had less "Time over Target" as they carry less fuel and therefore have to refuel more often or carry less weapons.

While Harriers are fanatsic aircraft (I worked on them for 5 years) they're designed to be a CAS aircraft, not a strike aircraft, which is what we need in Libya. The Tornado GR4 can do both roles while the Harrier GR9 can't due to it's limited weapons fit.

Hope that makes sense.
 
even atm!
but if you want the best news coverage you can find try here

http://www.libyafeb17.com/

the site does go down abit/a lot. but its the best coverage i have got so far.

map-airforces-in-italy-france-624.jpg


for a taster
 
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Libyan rebels take Ajdabiya

Libyan opposition rebels have taken the strategic eastern city of Ajdabiya from government control, Al Jazeera's correspondent there reported.

"There is no doubt about it, you can probably hear some of the celebrations behind me, Ajdabiya is in opposition hands," Al Jazeera's James Bays said from the city on Saturday.

"Gaddafi forces have been controlling the ring road that goes around Ajdabiya ... that has been the situation for six days, but they have now been cleared from that position."

"The opposition forces tell me their may be some pro-Gaddafi forces hiding, snipers possibly on buildings, they are telling us to take care," Bays said, but he added that Ajdabiya was "firmly back under the control of opposition fighters".

Rebel fighters were now reportedly on their way to the key oil port town of Brega, Bays said.

"The road is open beyond Ajdabiya, and [the rebels] are heading, streaming along that road ... they are on the road and they are moving forward."

Earlier on Saturday, rebels reported having entered Ajdabiya in a bid to wrestle control of the strategic area.

Many fighters belonging to forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi were held hostage after fierce fighting on Friday, rebels said.

Pro-Gaddafi forces are now mainly positioned in the west of the city, having previously held the entire city, they said.

On Friday, western warplanes bombed Gaddafi's tanks and artillery outside the town to try to break a battlefield stalemate and help rebels retake the strategic area.



Plumes of smoke filled the sky as the pace of coalition air strikes escalated, forcing terrified residents to flee Ajdabiya, which is 160km south of the rebel stronghold of Benghazi.

"We entered the town," Colonel Mohammed Ehsayer, who defected from the army to join the rebellion told AFP news agency at a rebel outpost a few kilometres east of the city.

Misurata fighting

Forces loyal to Gaddafi shelled an area on the outskirts of the city of Misurata on Friday, killing six people including three children, a rebel said.

The Libyan port, the North African country's third biggest city, has experienced some of the heaviest fighting between rebels and forces loyal to Gaddafi since an uprising began on February 16.

Officials and rebels said on Friday aid organisations were able to deliver some supplies to Misurata.

"There is a fairly regular supply going into Misurata," Simon Brooks, head of the International Committee of the Red Cross operations in eastern Libya, told Reuters.

"But we are deeply concerned about the reports we are receiving about fighting in the city."

Casualties have overwhelmed the local medical clinic and prompted international concern about the safety of civilians.

Residents say electricity, water and regular land and cell phone service to Misurata are not functioning. Reports from the city cannot be verified independently because Libyan authorities have prevented journalists from going there.

On Thursday, government spokesman Mussa Ibrahim said the government was in total control of the city, a claim denied by rebels.

AU proposal

Meanwhile, on the diplomatic front, the African Union said it plans to facilitate talks to help end the conflict in Libya between government and rebel forces.

"The AU action is ... aiming at facilitating dialogue between the Libyan parties on reforms to be launched to
eliminate the root causes of the conflict," the union's commission chairman Jean Ping told a meeting in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia on Friday.

He said that the process should end with democratic elections in Libya.

It was the first statement by the AU, which had rejected any form of foreign intervention in the Libya crisis, since the UN Security Council imposed a no-fly zone last week and a Western coalition began air strikes on Libyan military targets.

Libya's delegation to the meeting, at which the rebels were not represented, called for an end to
air strikes and said the government was committed to upholding a ceasefire it declared on Sunday.

The delegation said Tripoli is ready to implement an AU roadmap to resolve the Libyan crisis, while also demanding a halt to the Western-led coalition's military intervention.

"We are ready to implement the Road Map envisaged ... (by) the High-Level Committee mandated by the Peace and Security Council of the African Union," said a statement from the delegation headed by Mohammed al-Zwai, secretary general of the General People's Congress.

The AU roadmap calls for an immediate end to all hostilities, "cooperation on the part of the relevant Libyan authorities to facilitate humanitarian aid," and "protection for all foreign nationals, including African migrant workers."

The delegation called on the international community to oblige the "other parties" in the conflict to respect a ceasefire, referring to the opposition, and demanded "the cessation of the air bombardment and the naval
blockade carried out by Western forces and the United States".

Freelance foreign policy

Anita McNaught, Al Jazeera's correspondent in the Libyan capital of Tripoli, said it was not the first time that a Libyan delegation "conducted a little freelance foreign policy on the sideline" and that there was no way of telling if the offer was sincere.

"In much the same way we had the foreign ministry go out on a limb a few days ago and say that they declared a ceasefire," she said.

"That was in complete contradiction of the facts on the ground and also the rhetoric coming from Colonel Gaddafi himself who wasn’t saying anything to do with a ceasefire.

"He was saying: We'll fight to the death; we'll chase you into your homes. We'll pursue this war to the end."

"A rebel spokesman in Benghazi said they weren't consulted in this initiative. Some reports say they were even invited to the meeting others say they were but refused to go. Others are saying there isn't an opening for negotiating, that they simply want the bombing to stop and Gaddafi and his family to leave."

However, diplomatic efforts may be sidelined, if reports by the Washington Post are confirmed with respect to US and NATO considering arming the Libyan opposition.

The newspaper reported on Saturday, citing unamed US and European officials, that the Obama admnistration believe the UN resolution that authorised international intervention in Libya has the "flexibility" to allow such assistance.

According to newspaper, Gene Cretz, the recently withdrawn US ambassador to Libya, said administration officials were having "the full gamut" of discussions on "potential assistance we might offer, both on the non-lethal and the lethal side".
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http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201132681812362552.html

Glad to see the rebel making progress :cool:
 
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