Looking for career advice - PhD or job?

In all honesty I am sick of being an undergrad.....

However I feel a PhD would be like a full time job anyway, because it is. I expect there to be deadlines and times where the workload is high, but then how is that different to real life?

If you think you'd like to do the PhD then by all means go for it but while it will doubtless be different from your undergrad I'd wonder if it will be different enough to not be an issue for you. If you're simply fed up with studying then maybe it's not the best option for you right now.

While it does sound like the PhD is a good option for you and should improve your prospects it's worth considering whether you feel you can/want to commit to another X years worth of study.
 
Don't know what university w11tho is referring to but the University of Surrey EngD is massively in demand and they only take on the best of the best candidates.
I'm not singling out any particular University - this happens in any University, but is less of an issue if the department is inundated with applications from competent people. For instance, I've no doubt that in your case the University of Surrey picked out the very best people they could from their pool of applicants. Whether that pool consisted of the best of the best, is another matter!

My point was that if a department is faced with either: a) not filling a place, or b) filling that place with someone below par, then the latter option is more financially viable, and it's fairly easy to give someone a straightforward problem and spend 3-4 years walking them through it. This is obviously more of an issue at less prestigious departments which probably receive fewer applications that others.

Apologies for swaying off topic slightly. :)
 
If you think you'd like to do the PhD then by all means go for it but while it will doubtless be different from your undergrad I'd wonder if it will be different enough to not be an issue for you. If you're simply fed up with studying then maybe it's not the best option for you right now.

I don't think I have an issue with learning, I am just tired of being an undergraduate.
I see the freshers in halls (even the mech, auto and aero engineers) without a care in the world - By the time they are finalists they will say **** me it is not fun anymore as well.

I need 65% for the remainder of my degree for a 1st so I know that I am capable of doing the further work - Surely they wouldn't have offered it me if I was not (even if the appication numbers were low).

My supervisor likes rigid hours of 9-5, which is fine by me as it will be like placement and my day will have a decent structure.

To those who do a PhD, is it just like a full time job?
Some people tell me it is just weeks of reading papers that other people have written, is this true?
 
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A PhD is not an alternative to a job. It will likely add less to your career than working would - unless research is what you want to do.

Do the PhD if you want to not because of where it will take you.
 
A PhD is not like a job, you will never stick to rigid hours beyond your first year. The final year will encompass your life and you will find it one of the hardest things you have ever done. You have to remain self motivated in the face of complete disinterest from everyone you come into contact with about what it is you actually are working on as well.

This is what I am informed from several people completing various chemistry PhD's.
 
I'm educated in Electrical and Electronic Engineering to MEng level. I also have an interest in software engineering, which I'd manage to include where possible with optional modules. At the end of my undergraduate degree last year I faced the same decision - Go into industry or continue on to do a PhD?

The PhD that I applied for was for ubiquitous computing. It was a very popular and hard-fought PhD and funded very well, over £15k I believe. It was operated by a Comp Sci department and would have allowed me to work within this arena whilst employing the specialities of my degree. In the end though, I turned this down for a job in industry as an Embedded Software Engineer.

It was a hard call but I do not regret it. I was pretty good friends with quite a few people already doing PhDs who all, without fail, advised against it. I guess the fact I was even having to ask for advice was an answer in itself; you've got to be passionate to have the drive for the PhD and merely questioning it was probably enough to show, like the OP, that my heart was not in it. I'm sure I'd have gotten by (I enjoyed Uni and worked well under the pressure, especially on individual projects completed in the final years) but I think it'd have become a chore by the end. I'm just not sure I'd like to finish University/enter industry at 26 (or similar)... Though from what I hear after spending so long in academia many that do continue to study PhD end up staying in academia or move into research.

When I spoke to my final year project supervisor, who was also offering a PhD route for me, his suggestion was to go into industry and see if it was for me. In his words "Get the 'what if' out of your system" and told that with a good degree behind me, as achieved, the door back into doing a PhD would always be open... His advice was that there is always funding available for good students willing to study a PhD. This was probably true based on the email I got sent, enquiring my availability, from another lecturer (later found out he'd also sent to a number of students he was interested in getting on board).

All said and done, and now a few months into industry, I think it was the right decision. I'm enjoying my work and find that I'm continuing to learn a lot. I'm not sure if this is because of a step difference between academia and industry or because it is not directly in the field I studied (or both!), but I enjoy learning and so this suits me well. Indeed, I feel pretty lucky to have fallen into a job that I enjoy getting up for, whilst continuing to learn and enhance my knowledge in new areas.

I do occasionally miss the "pure" electronics of my degree (which has now become more of a hobby) but I do not think the PhD route would have offered this anymore (for example, you may well use a microcontroller for a particular purpose within a PhD but you'd rarely study a PhD *on* microcontrollers).

My advice, with industry how it is, if you've got an offer then go and try it. You've sampled academic life and can always return if industry does not satisfy your desires.
 
the key to doing a PhD is to stay motivated, because you won't be pushed - you have to do it yourself.
if you can do that and you enjoy it, then its easy.
 

Good read! Thanks for taking the time to post that!
I have every confidence that the PhD will be time consuming towards the 2nd half of it (I have spoken to current students at the University in the same school as me).

I have had some time in industry. I was at the company I saw today for 13 months for a year in industry and learnt a lot from that.

I need an M Eng (or is it half an M Eng?) to become IMECHE chartered so the B Eng I will get will not be enough. Also an Msc will cost a fortune as it is all year round (and unless taken this coming Sept/Oct will get raped in the new fees in 2012).
Also the PhD fees are paid and I wonder if these will get raped in 2012.

The whole sustainability thing seems to have so much money being spent on it these days.
A quick google shows this: http://www.lboro.ac.uk/service/publicity/news-releases/2011/29_EPSRC_Centres.html

I understand the comments of an earlier poster about looking at proteins hoping to cure cancer, but this sustainability thing is going to be huge very soon - We have no choice in the matter.

PhD or job, I will throw myself into both regardless of how much fun or a bore it is, because I am a firm believer that I won't get anything out unless I put everything in.
 
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the key to doing a PhD is to stay motivated, because you won't be pushed - you have to do it yourself.
if you can do that and you enjoy it, then its easy.

I find motivation in feeling my work is worth while.
The topic of interest is of such great importance and doing so would bring me to a level of the decision makers rather than being just an implementer of the solution other people have decided on.
 
The thought of doing a PhD couldn't be less appealing to me. Essentially, you will be paid pittance to research something that anyone else could spend four years investigating. It's unlikely to be life changing. Furthermore, anyone else can use your knowledge in a practical sense after you have completed it.
Underlining mine

Are you referring specifically to the OP's possible thesis area or PhDs in general? If its the former you're being a little presumptuous and if its the latter then you're flat out wrong. The whole point of PhDs (though this is becoming somewhat watered down) is they are supposed to be difficult, hence why they are valued. Not just in the "This stuff is academically complicated" or "I need to think about this" but in the sense of having to spend 3~5 (or more in some countries!) years working on a very specific thing, with pretty much only yourself for motivation. Even academically gifted people sometimes drop by the wayside of a PhD due to the psychological pressure they feel, even if they are breezing through the work.

Its important to really enjoy and be interested in your thesis area, else you'll grow to hate it precisely because you have to do it every day and if you have a day off no one else picks up the slack, its still there waiting for you when you go back to the office the next day. In the office I worked in during my PhD there were 5 other people and while I think I could, if I put in the time, understand to a working level each person's research I couldn't have done a PhD in just any one of those topics because I didn't find all of them interesting.

Yes, there are some PhDs where you hear the thesis title and think "Really? You spent X years on that?!" because it sounds pointless or vapid. From my experience that tends to happen less often in the realms of science, where specific goals might be clearer and the contribution of a thesis more easily evaluated.

It's unlikely to be life changing.
In what sense? Reshaping the entire academic landscape? No, its not likely that's going to happen. If you mean help focus your research skills, self motivation, long term goals and the multitude of little skills/abilities needed to do a PhD then it will be life changing. My view of maths and physics in general was heavily reshaped by doing a PhD. Now I feel I have a good overview of many things I studied at university and I'm more happier with what I do and don't grasp and how various bits of my knowledge fit together. At the start of my PhD I'd say things were quite different.

Furthermore, anyone else can use your knowledge in a practical sense after you have completed it.
That's the whole point of scientific research, the better and help the community as a whole. Yes, research done for private companies needs to be kept quiet so the company can profit from it but if you're going into a publicly funded PhD then your research should be available to all. Things like www.arxiv.org have helped the physics and maths community enormously, as results and methods can be spread within days, not months or years.

The whole 'change the world' philosphy is a massive farce most of the time.
Anyone who goes into a PhD and doesn't think "It'd be nice if I came up with something great" shouldn't be doing a PhD. That doesn't mean you go in thinking "I will come up with something great", but a sense of optimism and a purpose in mind certainly isn't a bad thing.

When I studied biology I wanted to cure cancer. I then learned that if I took a PhD it would most likely be spending 4 years rearching one receptor on one protein out of a hundred that is produced in one stage of a life cycle of a fungus that nobody cares about and has no use.
It sounds like you had a bit of a naive view of science then. Didn't you realise during your degree just how vast the effort required to build up our current knowledge is? Every single page in a textbook represents dozens, even hundreds, of people's careers, particularly when huge quantities of experimental results are needed. Yes, curing cancer would be nice but without the combined effort of millions of man-years of pain staking work like examining each protein receptor in turn we'll never cure cancer. As Newton said, if we see further it is because we stand on the shoulders of giants. Now we see further because we stand on everyone's shoulders. Open a PhD thesis to the references and you'll find hundreds of references, each of which will references dozens or hundreds, and likewise, on and on.

Do you really want to spend four years of you life doing that? Really? Really really really?

Unless there are other factors influencing you and you are 100% sure it makes sense, avoid like the plague!
The reality for most, even the exceptionally good, science research is about chipping away, one grain at a time, at the problem. Perhaps you might be lucky and do the chip which brings down the mountain but if your attitude is that the PhD wasn't worth it because you couldn't see how you'd do something huge then clearly you're not PhD material, regardless of your academic abilities, because you have the completely wrong attitude for one. I do research because I enjoy it and because I like the fact I'm contributing to our understanding of things. Sure, I'll never make a big name for myself and now I don't even publish papers because I work for a private company (and thus any new ideas/results I do become commercially valuable IP) but ultimately the work I do will filter into the community and merge with the many thousands of other people like me, it all helps.

Being paid to think is a pretty rare thing but its not for everyone.
 
Wow, thank you for making such a detailed reply to my post, clearly you are quite passionate :)

These two paragraphs allow me to expand most succinctly:

It sounds like you had a bit of a naive view of science then. Didn't you realise during your degree just how vast the effort required to build up our current knowledge is? Every single page in a textbook represents dozens, even hundreds, of people's careers, particularly when huge quantities of experimental results are needed. Yes, curing cancer would be nice but without the combined effort of millions of man-years of pain staking work like examining each protein receptor in turn we'll never cure cancer. As Newton said, if we see further it is because we stand on the shoulders of giants. Now we see further because we stand on everyone's shoulders. Open a PhD thesis to the references and you'll find hundreds of references, each of which will references dozens or hundreds, and likewise, on and on.

The reality for most, even the exceptionally good, science research is about chipping away, one grain at a time, at the problem. Perhaps you might be lucky and do the chip which brings down the mountain but if your attitude is that the PhD wasn't worth it because you couldn't see how you'd do something huge then clearly you're not PhD material, regardless of your academic abilities, because you have the completely wrong attitude for one. I do research because I enjoy it and because I like the fact I'm contributing to our understanding of things. Sure, I'll never make a big name for myself and now I don't even publish papers because I work for a private company (and thus any new ideas/results I do become commercially valuable IP) but ultimately the work I do will filter into the community and merge with the many thousands of other people like me, it all helps.

Being paid to think is a pretty rare thing but its not for everyone.
You're right, I do have the completely wrong attitude for one. However I am not nieve in my view of science. I'm just selfish.

I have an absolutely huge appreciation for the amount of work that has gone into scientific research and I do not take it for granted. I always wanted to do a PhD, right into my third year of my science degree. But my dissertation completely put me off. It was quite a technical experiment involving transforming a plant (Arabidopsis) with some Plasmodium genes to create a plant to produces something that can be harvested as a product. The idea involved thought. The research did not. Once you knew how to use the equipment, it was manual labour. The same experiments over and over again to get results - sometimes they didn't work because the cells wouldn't uptake the sequences for unknown reasons and weeks had to be redone again. It was painful. My friend works for a pharma company doing research and he says he is doing the same boring lab work that we used to do back in the day. For a person like me, it was just dire. I can appreciate that a PhD takes it all to the next level in terms of the scale of the operation, but I'm a bit dubious that it's always a continual thinking process from start to finish if any lab work is involved, but I guess there are long slogs in all lines of work. Also, lab work was incredibly isolating in my experiences. A small team working on relating projects, in at different hours of the day... all this will obviously depend on your department and study focus.

Most importantly, the most interesting part of science for me was the learning, understanding the big pictures and the big concepts. You really are chipping away at a boulder with a toothpick with the vast majority of PhDs availible. For me, that level of focus would remove all of the excitement.

As far how well paid it is, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure most PhDs are not offering financial sector or similar salaries.

With that taken into account, if I have one life to live I would rather spend it pursuing financial success in a more social industry where I will have to use my brain (although I'm sure Raymond_lin will swan in to correct me... :p)

I'm not PhD material, nor would I ever want to be. However, being paid to think is certainly up my alley :)
 
With that taken into account, if I have one life to live I would rather spend it pursuing financial success in a more social industry where I will have to use my brain (although I'm sure Raymond_lin will swan in to correct me... :p)

It depends what area of law you want to go into, there's a lot more room for intelligent application in some than in others. If you pick IP law for instance then you'll probably find more scope for interpretation and consideration as it's much newer than if you were to pick criminal law which is much more settled and for much of it you will simply be following rote procedures in representing your client - there's only so many possible defences to assault that you can bring up or whatever.

However this is way off the initial subject.
 
Went to the placement company today for an interview at one of the smaller business units and the job looked varied and would be a good learning oppurtunity. If I get an offer for this, with the right contract, I shall accept it.
 
mglover070588

I was in the same situation nearly two years ago, except I did MEng civil engineering.

I took the job (actually not the one I intended to go for), and I'm glad I did. A BEng from Loughborough is very good, you're certainly set up for your career, a Phd won't make you much more employable.

Have you considered a masters? I don't know how important it is for chartership in your field, but it makes life easier in Civil eng.
 
I just had my Viva yesterday.

A PHD is a big committment, you have to be 100% dedicated to survive.

But my advice is to do a PhD in Switzerland, my monthly pay was about £3500 before tax of about 10%.
 
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