The Koran - Whos Read It?

Castiel said:
From a historical perspective that was nothing unusual. Children were often betrothed from an early age, sometimes from birth to men often far older than them.

What is unusual, even for 7th century Medina was the claim that the marriage was consummated when Ayesha was only 9-10 years old. There are many contradictory accounts of the age and consummation of Ayesha and her marriage to Muhammed, it is more likely that she was 12-14 when the marriage was consummated and while that may still seem anathema to our modern sensibilities, it was not during the 7th century, in fact 14 was a perfectly acceptable age until relatively recently even in Europe.

You can only objectively judge these things by the morality of the time in which they happened.
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Yeah I know all about marriages being used for political purposes or for consolidating wealth/power, however I think it is a supremely f'd up thing for someone to have sex with someone so young. People always bring up the "done thing at the time" argument, and personally I think people in power have always been able to do what they like since the average person/society could do nothing about it in the past since there was no police force or proper judicial system in existence (just look at places in the middle east and Africa where it is acceptable to beat women since there are no repercussions for the men ).

If there are no consequences, many people will do what they like, and in the past there were often no consequences, so people got away with immoral things.
 
Castiel said:
From a historical perspective that was nothing unusual. Children were often betrothed from an early age, sometimes from birth to men often far older than them.

What is unusual, even for 7th century Medina was the claim that the marriage was consummated when Ayesha was only 9-10 years old. There are many contradictory accounts of the age and consummation of Ayesha and her marriage to Muhammed, it is more likely that she was 12-14 when the marriage was consummated and while that may still seem anathema to our modern sensibilities, it was not during the 7th century, in fact 14 was a perfectly acceptable age until relatively recently even in Europe.

You can only objectively judge these things by the morality of the time in which they happened.
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Also didn't he marry her to free her from slavery or something?
 
I'm reading it at the moment. It's a thoroughly underwhelming text that contains nothing that couldn't have been written by a 7th century intellectual (i.e. there is nothing divine), and it is so blatantly a near wholesale plagiarism of the Bible that I get more shocked the more I read.
 
e36Adz said:
I have read the Quran and parts of the Bible and I am still learning, I think we alway are, I learn something new whenever I read the Quran. Being a muslim myself I believe that the Quran as revealed in Arabic is the word of God, and it is a guide to those who approach it sincerely for guidance and it explains events that unfold in the world and will unfold in the future.

It is amazing how God has preserved the text, He has made it easy to memorize and it has been memorized since it was first revealed and is still to this day by millions of people, and so it's preserved even if every physical copy was gone tomorrow.
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I understand this is merely your viewpoint, but how can you believe that the word of God is merely available in a particular form?

I've been told by muslims before that the English translation isn't fully relatable, and with any arguments that is always bandied out.

My problem with islam is it's inflexibility. Lots of other religions (Christianity for example) have a certain amount of flex, which is in keeping and is understanding of human nature and times.
 
Castiel said:
From a historical perspective that was nothing unusual. Children were often betrothed from an early age, sometimes from birth to men often far older than them.

What is unusual, even for 7th century Medina was the claim that the marriage was consummated when Ayesha was only 9-10 years old. There are many contradictory accounts of the age and consummation of Ayesha and her marriage to Muhammed, it is more likely that she was 12-14 when the marriage was consummated and while that may still seem anathema to our modern sensibilities, it was not during the 7th century, in fact 14 was a perfectly acceptable age until relatively recently even in Europe.

You can only objectively judge these things by the morality of the time in which they happened.
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Really?

The messenger of God, starting a religion that was meant through the ages, can only be held accountable in regards the age he lived in?

Great example to have set.
 
kenmare said:
Really?

The messenger of God, starting a religion that was meant through the ages, can only be held accountable in regards the age he lived in?

Great example to have set.
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If you want to judge the actions of the culture from an objective historical-critical perspective, then yes.

You could have course impose modern western morality onto the ancient world, or even the UK prior to 1885 when the age of consent was 13, or onto a country such as Peru where the age of consent is 12 (marriage is 14) or if we consider EU countries such as Hungary, Germany, Italy or Austria which sets the age of consent at 14. Spain it is as low as 13, so not far off what modern scholars state is the true age of Ayesha at consummation.

Interestingly Some Muslim countries such as Turkey (18) and Tunisia (20) have higher ages of consent.

It all depends on how objective you want to be when being critical of Islam and whether you wish to attribute accepted cross-cultural norms only to Islamic belief.
 
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Castiel said:
If you want to judge the actions of the culture from an objective historical-critical perspective, then yes.

You could have course impose modern western morality onto the ancient world, or even the UK prior to 1885 when the age of consent was 13, or onto a country such as Peru where the age of consent is 12 (marriage is 14) or if we consider EU countries such as Hungary, Germany, Italy or Austria which sets the age of consent at 14. Spain it is as low as 13, so not far off what modern scholars state is the true age of Ayesha at consummation.

Interestingly Some Muslim countries such as Turkey (18) and Tunisia (20) have higher ages of consent.

It all depends on how objective you want to be when being critical of Islam and whether you wish to attribute accepted cross-cultural norms only to Islamic belief.
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Why would I defend the western morality of the situation? I'm merely saying that the religion with it's prophet engaging in such acts (among many other actions we would consider unsavoury) condones such activities.

Out of curiosity, what does the Christian faith say about what we would say "underage marriage"
 
kenmare said:
Why would I defend the western morality of the situation? I'm merely saying that the religion with it's prophet engaging in such acts (among many other actions we would consider unsavoury) condones such activities.
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It would seem that many modern nations also still condone betrothal at an early age, and marriage and consummation at similar ages, so I fail to see what you are getting at, unless you are stating that a Muslim Country such as Tunisia or Turkey is more morally advanced because of the increase age of consent, in which case that undermines using 7th century cultural morality to criticise Islam, as some modern Islamic countries have a higher age than the UK.

Even Muslim countries such as Iran which we would consider to be morally questionable have the same age of consent and marriage as the UK, and as sex outside marriage is illegal in Iran so is sex before the ages of 18 for men and 16 for women.

The most notable exception is Saudi Arabia who have no restrictions on Marriage age, although they are currently considering an 18 year old restriction.

Coincidentally 200 years ago the legal age of consent and marriage in the United States was 10 for girls.....does that mean the modern US condones such things?

kenmare said:
Out of curiosity, what does the Christian faith say about what we would say "underage marriage"
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The Bible and Qur'an do not actually say anything about the age of consent, which implies it is a cultural and not a religious thing.

Judaism is traditionally seen as endorsing the ages of 13 (Bar Mitzvah) and 12 for girls (Bat Mitzvah).
 
Castiel said:
You can only objectively judge these things by the morality of the time in which they happened.
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In one sense, absolutely. On the other, it's not difficult to conclude that marrying a 6 year old is a pretty appalling thing. I'm not saying that in order to put down any faith, rather just to point out that just because something was culturally accepted at the time doesn't mean it's acceptable from every perspective or impossible to attack.
 
Nitefly said:
In one sense, absolutely. On the other, it's not difficult to conclude that marrying a 6 year old is a pretty appalling thing. I'm not saying that in order to put down any faith, rather just to point out that just because something was culturally accepted at the time doesn't mean it's acceptable from every perspective or impossible to attack.
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The point is that she was betrothed at 6, not married and marriage and consummation came far later, age 10 if the specific hadith is to be believed, or 12-14 if more modern scholars and interpretation and translations are correct.

Either way as recently as the 18th century 10 was the age of consent in that bastian of western morality, the USA, and 13-14 is still accepted in many moderate countries to this day.

So criticise it by all means, however it is not really relevent to modern Islam, or even Islam at the time, and more indicative of the culture of the time.
 
kenmare said:
I understand this is merely your viewpoint, but how can you believe that the word of God is merely available in a particular form?
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The Quran which according to muslims is the final revelation to mankind was revealed in Arabic. Other holy scripture revealed before the Quran may have been in a different language. Now if you imagine Gods exact words coming in one language, then a human attempt is made to translate that into another language, you can understand that the translation will never be the same as the original. In some cases I even pointed out that the same word in arabic can have 2-3 meanings all of which apply, this won't be the same when translated into another language.

kenmare said:
I've been told by muslims before that the English translation isn't fully relatable, and with any arguments that is always bandied out.
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With it being translated by humans, it is possible there may be inconsistencies in there. Every muslim scholar from what I have seen who has refuted so-called 'errors in the Quran' has always gone back to the original arabic text first.

kenmare said:
My problem with islam is it's inflexibility. Lots of other religions (Christianity for example) have a certain amount of flex, which is in keeping and is understanding of human nature and times.
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The word of God is not subject to change over time as society changes. You call it flexibility, but what remains of Christianity today, that was there when Jesus Christ PBUH was actually here? Do you think those Christians then would even recognise these people today as Christians? Women priests, homosexual priests, gay marriages etc etc. Many things that Christianity forbids and condemns are taking place freely and openly now, and just because the vast majority of Christians convince themselves it's ok, quite a fair amount know it isnt.

Irrespective of what society tells us is right and wrong, the laws of Islam will never change as odd and strange as it may seem to certain societies but the prophet PBUH did say: “Islam began as something strange and will revert to being strange as it began, so give glad tidings to the strangers.”

kenmare said:
Really?

The messenger of God, starting a religion that was meant through the ages, can only be held accountable in regards the age he lived in?

Great example to have set.
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Someone born in this day and age, in this society will naturally be inclined to view things like homosexual marriages as perfectly normal, yet if this person was born 100 years ago they would most probably think the exact opposite. Islam can be held accountable now as everything the prophet PBUH did was commanded by God and was an example to show humankind the correct way, so a man (of any age who has reached the age of puberty) marrying a female (of any age who has reached the age of puberty) is perfectly normal despite what you think of it now. If you study cultures before the prophet PBUHs time and even after, even if you look at Kings of England you will see this practice was considered perfectly normal for thousands of years (even hundreds of years after the prophet PBUHs time) but it is a fairly recent change that has occurred, and not by accident I should add.

kenmare said:
Out of curiosity, what does the Christian faith say about what we would say "underage marriage"
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It was perfectly normal and widespread 2000 years ago, there was no concept of turning 18 or 16 and then getting married, they followed the biological clock of a person. How about we look at what age Mary PBUH was when she miraculously gave birth to Jesus Christ PBUH as a sign from God? What age was she? She gave birth soon after she hit puberty.
 
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