Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed by Pc

Participant · 25 May 2011 at 14:26

Well, plod is allowed to touch people, surely that's a given? Otherwise how do they do their job? A mere touch is not considered battery, what on earth are you talking about.

JBuk · 25 May 2011 at 14:30

Robbie G said:
You can't reasonably forsee that you would kill someone by pushing them. The copper no doubt thought the guy was taking the mickey. Imo the copper should be let off, we can't have our 5-0 scared to use force.

No you cannot forsee a tragic outcome but when your actions are responsible for it then you have to be held accountable

Freakbro · 25 May 2011 at 14:31

Robbo said:
Yes, he wasn't a threat and considering the ridiculous world we live in, the officer was stupid to touch him, but his intentions were CLEARLY not to injure (let alone kill) the man, so him possibly being sent to prison is obscene.

"Manslaughter - The unlawful killing of one human by another without express or implied intent to do injury."

What the police officer did was manslaughter, end of.

It is just pure bad luck the guy died yep, but it was determined the police officers actions attributed to his death, thus the prosecution is justified.

If you or I had done the same thing we would be prosecuted too, being a police officer is no different.

And yea, luck is the only deciding factor, he could have fallen and suffered nothing more than a bruise, but he didn't.

So its not a ridiculous world for this reason, though maybe for many others!

edscdk · 25 May 2011 at 14:31

kenmare said:
What part of the Law do you not understand about the eggshell skull rule.

Also, what part of the law allows the police to commit the offense of battery?

What part of the officers actions were "encouraging"?

but its the polices job to maintain order if they cannot touch people how can they do that? if he had been kicked by the officer while on the ground, or stamped on or punched several times I'd maybe think differently..

people get pushed all the time and fall over its not unreasonable force, the officer was not drunk causing trouble pushing random people he was doing the job he was supposed to... maybe next time the officers should hide in a bunker?

Participant · 25 May 2011 at 14:35

Time for that .gif of the American policeman taking a baton to a mime artist (or it would be if I could find it).

Now THAT's unreasonable!!

JBuk · 25 May 2011 at 14:36

edscdk said:
but its the polices job to maintain order if they cannot touch people how can they do that? if he had been kicked by the officer while on the ground, or stamped on or punched several times I'd maybe think differently..

people get pushed all the time and fall over its not unreasonable force, the officer was not drunk causing trouble pushing random people he was doing the job he was supposed to... maybe next time the officers should hide in a bunker?

he was hit with a baton wasn't he? or am i imagining that bit?

there was no justification for touching him at all

Tute · 25 May 2011 at 14:45

SH should be tried for assault, but nothing more really. To even consider manslaughter just goes to show how anti-authority this country really has become.

Nobody seems to even notice that there was clearly some underlying health problem at all, it's all about creating a scapegoat.

JBuk · 25 May 2011 at 14:48

Tute said:
SH should be tried for assault, but nothing more really. To even consider manslaughter just goes to show how anti-authority this country really has become.

Nobody seems to even notice that there was clearly some underlying health problem at all, it's all about creating a scapegoat.

If you or I were to push someone over who subsequently died then we would also be on manslaughter charges

Participant · 25 May 2011 at 14:50

JBuk said:
If you or I were to push someone over who subsequently died then we would also be on manslaughter charges

Only if the pushing was criminal.

Skunkworks · 25 May 2011 at 14:53

Freakbro said:
"Manslaughter - The unlawful killing of one human by another without express or implied intent to do injury."

What the police officer did was manslaughter, end of.

It is just pure bad luck the guy died yep, but it was determined the police officers actions attributed to his death, thus the prosecution is justified.

If you or I had done the same thing we would be prosecuted too, being a police officer is no different.

And yea, luck is the only deciding factor, he could have fallen and suffered nothing more than a bruise, but he didn't.

So its not a ridiculous world for this reason, though maybe for many others!

Indeed.

It now comes down to whether the jury believe that push was reasonable force or not.

Pate · 25 May 2011 at 14:56

Robbie G said:
Well, plod is allowed to touch people, surely that's a given? Otherwise how do they do their job? A mere touch is not considered battery, what on earth are you talking about.

The courts have full acceptance that touching is an inevitable part of life (Eg a crowded tube etc). What the cop did goes beyond that by just a little bit.....

Tute said:
SH should be tried for assault, but nothing more really. To even consider manslaughter just goes to show how anti-authority this country really has become.

Nobody seems to even notice that there was clearly some underlying health problem at all, it's all about creating a scapegoat.

It's called the chain of causation. If the policemans act can be linked to Ian's death, then the policeman is liable.

Burnsy2023 · 25 May 2011 at 14:58

kenmare said:
Please cite where the officer is allowed to touch the victim, considering a mere touch is considered battery, in itself a criminal act.

Common law power to prevent a breach of the peace.

majestyk · 25 May 2011 at 14:59

During the course the day the police probably batoned and/or pushed over dozens of demonstrators, the majority of whom probably deserved it.

I'm guessing, but maybe the officer had been on duty a long time; maybe been the subject of verbal abuse, maybe even assault to himself.

In a fit of pique he decided to gain some form of retribution on someone who posed no threat to him or his colleagues.

I think it would have been assault without the subsequent death, but the fact the individual died after such an assault warrants a charge to establish wether the officers actions caused the death.

Participant · 25 May 2011 at 15:01

kenmare said:
The courts have full acceptance that touching is an inevitable part of life (Eg a crowded tube etc). What the cop did goes beyond that by just a little bit.....

So why did you say...

kenmare said:
Please cite where the officer is allowed to touch the victim, considering a mere touch is considered battery, in itself a criminal act.

That?

Efour · 25 May 2011 at 15:09

Oh well...

Crap situation, heavy handed copper gets wrists slapped. It had to happen one day.

Police are there to serve us not baton and push you to the floor for walking by.

Should be a lot more professional and not some power trip idiot.

Tute · 25 May 2011 at 15:14

JBuk said:
If you or I were to push someone over who subsequently died then we would also be on manslaughter charges

kenmare said:
It's called the chain of causation. If the policemans act can be linked to Ian's death, then the policeman is liable.

Not as clear cut as that, and you both know it.

I think there's some severe trolling going on here, do you both really believe what you're posting? I'm skeptical.

JBuk · 25 May 2011 at 15:30

Tute said:
Not as clear cut as that, and you both know it.

I think there's some severe trolling going on here, do you both really believe what you're posting? I'm skeptical.

In what circumstances would me intentionally pushing someone who then falls over and dies because of that, not lead to me being charged with manslaughter? (excluding lack of evidence etc)

Participant · 25 May 2011 at 15:32

JBuk said:
In what circumstances would me intentionally pushing someone who then falls over and dies because of that, not lead to me being charged with manslaughter? (excluding lack of evidence etc)

Self defence
Defence of others
Playing rugby
Pushing them out of the way of oncoming traffic

The Running Man · 25 May 2011 at 15:37

Burnsy2023 said:
How often have you seen someone get pushed or fall and get up without injury? Yes, ALL THE TIME.

Next time i see your grandad, ill whack him with a 2by4 and then as he;s walking off ill charge at him and face plant him into a pavement. But i wont intend to injure him. He'll be fine right? Surely thats a normal thing that people do all the time whilst attempting to not injure someone right?

wannabedamned · 25 May 2011 at 15:37

JBuk said:
In what circumstances would me intentionally pushing someone who then falls over and dies because of that, not lead to me being charged with manslaughter? (excluding lack of evidence etc)

When you're an officer of the law working under riot conditions. The officer didn't intentionally kill the guy. And he was working under conditions that were enforced to stop riots and escalation