30th of June strikes.

[Streeteh]

I'm not part of the teachers' unions that are going on strike, but even if i was, i'd likely still come into work.

It's just too late notice for me to personally view these strikes as fair.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Nope, lets hope you were.

I was making a point that if you don't care what happens to tohers they same will be visited unto you.

because it had a reference to nazi'ism (actually it's implied, not explicit) then another poster tried to make a big deal out of it and missed the point completely, whilst trying to rebut the quote with an incorrect assumption.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

I'm not part of the teachers' unions that are going on strike, but even if i was, i'd likely still come into work.

It's just too late notice for me to personally view these strikes as fair.

30th of June has been discussed since November last year - how much more nitice do they need?

Anyhoo - off out now so have fun without me!

 

[Streeteh]

30th of June has been discussed since November last year - how much more nitice do they need?

Anyhoo - off out now so have fun without me!

Not particularly well broadcast to those in the industries concerned then until too late. My union only just started mentioning it about a week ago.

 

[RDM]

Sigh, no he's not, he's saying that everyone - public and private sector workers - should be supporting the unions on this.

Alternatively we should be supporting a fair and affordable deal. 6.4% of salary for a 1/60th final salary pension is not really an affordable pension. But rather than look at things objectively we should instead compare the situation to the holocaust, because that is completely reasonable.

Just because you're not affected by what is in effect a 3% pay cut for teachers doesn't mean that you won't be in the near future when your boss decides your private sector pension is too generous.

You would be incredibly hard pressed to find any private sector pension anywhere near as generous as the above deal that teachers get. Even with an employees contribution increase to 9% it is still significantly better than the majority of private sector workers. Yet you still want workers who pay much more for much less to keep contributing?

Pensions have had to change due to the simple fact that we are all living longer. It has already happened in the private sector (final salary pension schemes are pretty much a thing of the past now even in banking) the same sorts of adjustments need to be made to public sector pensions.

 

[Floogie]

So does anyone actually have any evidence that proves the unaffordability of public sector pensions? Or all we all content to just repeat it like a bunch of psittacidae?

 

[scrlk]

I don't think the Summer of Discontent has the same 'ring' as the Winter of Discontent.

 

[LordSplodge]

Oh look a thread on Public Sector threatening to strike that has turned into a "Private sector is where the workers are. Public Sector has gold plated super pensions" diatribe.

Such rhetoric is tiring. I'd suggest those towing that line have a look at the average wage in the public sector as well as what the average pension will be.

If the Government aren't listening then strikes are the only way to get a message across. Problem?

 

[RDM]

So does anyone actually have any evidence that proves the unaffordability of public sectors pensions? Or all we all content to just repeat it like a bunch of psittacidae?

Depends on if you believe that the government has a magical money tree and can spend as much as it likes. In which case no public sector pension is unaffordable. However if you believe in budgets then an additional 3% from each teacher is effectively a 3% saving on the education budget which can either be spent on other things in the education budget or spent on other government expenditure. If budgets are cut but pensions remain the same that means less money to be spent on other parts of the education budget.

Even with the proposed changes the teacher's pension scheme will be considerably more generous than the majority of private sector workers.

I don't think the Summer of Discontent has the same 'ring' as the Winter of Discontent.

You aren't going to get a Season of Discontent sort of situation these days anyway. Not enough people in unions any more.

 

[uk_unbeliever]

I'm pretty sure that LGPS is sustainable but can't find references right now. I don't think the same can be said about some civil service packages, but as usual the press just refer to 'public service pensions' as though they are all the same.

I really, really do not understand the mentality in this country whereby A has N and B has N+1, so A thinks it's fair for B to only get N, rather than trying to get N+1 for themselves. Surely this goes against the underlying liberal economic philosophy that is so pervasive in western societies?? why don't private sector employees spend their energy lobbying for better conditions for themselves?

When times were good I don't remember moaning my ass off at my mates in the private sector getting decent pay rises, bonuses and other perks like company cars, getting really lucrative over time and not to mention the ones who were self-employed avoiding as much tax as possible! All the while I was plugging along at a below inflation 2-2.5% annual wage increase- I didn't moan much because it was the contract I signed up for- but the 'deal' I signed up for included a reasonable pension as well.

I'm only 30, so by the time I retire I'm sure my pension will be worth nothing the way things are going so I'm not that personally aggrieved, but I really worry about what right minded person is going to want to be a social worker, teacher, nurse etc in 5-10 years time when the economy is (maybe) booming again, but public sector benefits are decimated.

 

[Floogie]

Depends on if you believe that the government has a magical money tree and can spend as much as it likes. In which case no public sector pension is unaffordable. However if you believe in budgets then an additional 3% from each teacher is effectively a 3% saving on the education budget which can either be spent on other things in the education budget or spent on other government expenditure. If budgets are cut but pensions remain the same that means less money to be spent on other parts of the education budget.

Even with the proposed changes the teacher's pension scheme will be considerably more generous than the majority of private sector workers.

I see. The crux of the issue for you is that you feel the money would be better spent elsewhere and that its more generous than many of its private sector schemes. Not really evidence of its affordability though is it?

Don't worry, I'll wait...

 

[fez]

I'm pretty sure that LGPS is sustainable but can't find references right now. I don't think the same can be said about some civil service packages, but as usual the press just refer to 'public service pensions' as though they are all the same.

I really, really do not understand the mentality in this country whereby A has N and B has N+1, so A thinks it's fair for B to only get N, rather than trying to get N+1 for themselves. Surely this goes against the underlying liberal economic philosophy that is so pervasive in western societies?? why don't private sector employees spend their energy lobbying for better conditions for themselves?

When times were good I don't remember moaning my ass off at my mates in the private sector getting decent pay rises, bonuses and other perks like company cars, getting really lucrative over time and not to mention the ones who were self-employed avoiding as much tax as possible! All the while I was plugging along at a below inflation 2-2.5% annual wage increase- I didn't moan much because it was the contract I signed up for- but the 'deal' I signed up for included a reasonable pension as well.

I'm only 30, so by the time I retire I'm sure my pension will be worth nothing the way things are going so I'm not that personally aggrieved, but I really worry about what right minded person is going to want to be a social worker, teacher, nurse etc in 5-10 years time when the economy is (maybe) booming again, but public sector benefits are decimated.

That is unfortunately the way of the world. It is not fair, you do not start a clean sheet every time a child is born. The sins of the father will be felt by the son.

Its not fair that house prices are so ridiculous that hardly anyone under 30 can get a mortgage without help from parents etc. Its not fair that I have to pay well over the odds for a house because the banks were willing to give any idiot a mortgage they couldn't sustain.

This is something that we all have to accept. We will have to get less than we should for quite a while before we can get what we deserve.

We have an ageing population which is being kept alive longer and at greater and greater monetary costs and we also have the people that cost the most to the system tending to be those that contribute the least.

Everyone wants us to sort out the national debt but they don't want to feel the cuts required.

 

[MrMoonX]

I'm pretty sure that LGPS is sustainable but can't find references right now. I don't think the same can be said about some civil service packages, but as usual the press just refer to 'public service pensions' as though they are all the same.

I really, really do not understand the mentality in this country whereby A has N and B has N+1, so A thinks it's fair for B to only get N, rather than trying to get N+1 for themselves. Surely this goes against the underlying liberal economic philosophy that is so pervasive in western societies?? why don't private sector employees spend their energy lobbying for better conditions for themselves?

When times were good I don't remember moaning my ass off at my mates in the private sector getting decent pay rises, bonuses and other perks like company cars, getting really lucrative over time and not to mention the ones who were self-employed avoiding as much tax as possible! All the while I was plugging along at a below inflation 2-2.5% annual wage increase- I didn't moan much because it was the contract I signed up for- but the 'deal' I signed up for included a reasonable pension as well.

I'm only 30, so by the time I retire I'm sure my pension will be worth nothing the way things are going so I'm not that personally aggrieved, but I really worry about what right minded person is going to want to be a social worker, teacher, nurse etc in 5-10 years time when the economy is (maybe) booming again, but public sector benefits are decimated.

exactly well said, ive spent years with below inflation pay raises, while the fatcats in the private sector have had massive pay rises and perks I could only dream of, all because I do a job that can only be done by a public sector worker!
but oh now the tables have turned and we are made scapegoats for rich tory bankers!

My employer signed a contract with me and I expect the meagre pension benefits contractually obliged to me when I reach 60 thank you very much

 

[Deleted member 66701]

I really, really do not understand the mentality in this country whereby A has N and B has N+1, so A thinks it's fair for B to only get N, rather than trying to get N+1 for themselves. Surely this goes against the underlying liberal economic philosophy that is so pervasive in western societies?

That's because in truth liberal economic policy is:-

A=x+y+2z and B=2x+2y+z so OMG A has 2y! So lets make it A=x+y+z and B=2x+2y+z. There that's better, much fairer now that B isn't jealous of A anymore.

 

[vicisthebest]

I am a teacher, have been in the profession for 2 years. I am not particularly well-paid, but it is better than a lot of people get after 2 years in the world of work.

The pension scheme at the moment is a very generous one - one of the perks of a VERY hard job. I agree that even with the changes being made, it will still be preferable to lots of private pension schemes.

The changes that are being made are going to hit older teachers than me harder. I'm not going into the pension scheme with any illusions of what I'm going to get out of it at the end. People who are 45, 50, and have been paying into the pension scheme for many, many years are now being told that the goalposts are being moved and that they won't get what they were promised. Those are the people I feel for. I have time to make other plans and save money in other ways to supplement my pension if I want to. Others don't have that time.

I am going to have to pay double the money I pay in now to the pension scheme, and I will get far less out of it in the end, when I am finally allowed to retire at 68, than I would have. According to the NUT's pensions calculator I will lose £230k over my career.

But I will not be going on strike on 30th June. It's not the children in my class's fault that we have issues with the ConDems. I do have sympathy with the people who will go on strike though.

Let's face it - the vast majority of people look out for number 1. Don't pretend that in 40 years' time, you will sit feeling sorry for the old man who lives 2 doors down because he has less pension money than you.

PS. to those who said 'public sector workers striking again at the drop of a hat' - ATL have NEVER called strike action in their entire 134 year history.

 

[scorza]

Alternatively we should be supporting a fair and affordable deal. 6.4% of salary for a 1/60th final salary pension is not really an affordable pension. But rather than look at things objectively we should instead compare the situation to the holocaust, because that is completely reasonable.

I must be missing something because 6.4% for 1/60th final salary seems like a terrible deal to me. No-one compared the situation to the holocaust, to suggest otherwise is mere hyperbole.

You would be incredibly hard pressed to find any private sector pension anywhere near as generous as the above deal that teachers get. Even with an employees contribution increase to 9% it is still significantly better than the majority of private sector workers. Yet you still want workers who pay much more for much less to keep contributing?

I'm all in favour of improving private sector pensions to match the teacher's pension. However you can't compare apples to oranges - public sector pensions have better terms because salaries are lower, the average public sector pension is worth £5000 a year compared to £7k a year in the private sector (I think, can't be sure of figures). Teacher's pensions are higher still because teaching is a high-value profession (despite what obnoxious right-wingtards on here claim) and their pensions are still lower than what you'd expect to get in other high value professions such as Medicine, Engineering, Law.

Pensions have had to change due to the simple fact that we are all living longer. It has already happened in the private sector (final salary pension schemes are pretty much a thing of the past now even in banking) the same sorts of adjustments need to be made to public sector pensions.

Raising the age at which pensions can be claimed might well end up being a compromise agreement with no pay cuts. They aren't going to get that by rolling over though, the government have backed them into this corner.

 

[uk_unbeliever]

That is unfortunately the way of the world. It is not fair, you do not start a clean sheet every time a child is born. The sins of the father will be felt by the son.

Its not fair that house prices are so ridiculous that hardly anyone under 30 can get a mortgage without help from parents etc. Its not fair that I have to pay well over the odds for a house because the banks were willing to give any idiot a mortgage they couldn't sustain.

This is something that we all have to accept. We will have to get less than we should for quite a while before we can get what we deserve.

We have an ageing population which is being kept alive longer and at greater and greater monetary costs and we also have the people that cost the most to the system tending to be those that contribute the least.

Everyone wants us to sort out the national debt but they don't want to feel the cuts required.

I don't really disagree with any of this. My problem though is that in 5-10years we'll be back to bankers taking huge risks, big companies / rich people still avoiding tax, big business making huge profits. Things will be looking up a bit for mr.average in the private sector but there will be a risk that working in the public sector is unappealing on both pay and benefits. Whatever some might like to say I'm sure that joe public will be pretty annoyed when no-one wants to be a teacher to teach their kids, we're shipping in nurses from abroad and local services that usually run unnoticed start having problems because of staffing issues.

Why is there not a huge national debate RIGHT NOW about how we're going to fund retirement in our ageing population?? It's just being put off because the only answer is for each person to pay more towards it, either via taxes or some kind of insurance. This government (and the last) are putting it off because it's a political no-winner.

back to striking- my view is that if we had stronger unions / more democratic work places (in all sectors) we'd have far less strikes, far happier workers, and more productive workers. Overall, a better workforce with everyone bar the very top level 'better off'. This is what we should all be pushing in my view.

 

[Freakbro]

I don't really disagree with any of this. My problem though is that in 5-10years we'll be back to bankers taking huge risks, big companies / rich people still avoiding tax, big business making huge profits.

Err...you dont have to wait that long, they already are!

The UK's wealthiest people have rebounded from the recession increasing their worth by 18% in the past year, the Sunday Times Rich List says

 

[RDM]

I see. The crux of the issue for you is that you feel the money would be better spent elsewhere and that its more generous than many of its private sector schemes. Not really evidence of its affordability though is it?

Don't worry, I'll wait...

I should have remembered that there is no point in actually trying to debate anything with you.

I must be missing something because 6.4% for 1/60th final salary seems like a terrible deal to me. No-one compared the situation to the holocaust, to suggest otherwise is mere hyperbole.

No the hyperbole was comrade amiga using the old "they came for me" poem. I love how as long as it is in support of your argument you can be as unreasonable and exaggerate as much as you like however as soon as someone else does it, it is hyperbole.

However, have a look at private pensions and see if you can find anything remotely like 6.4% of salary for a 1/60 final salary pension. 1/60 is pretty good as far as final salary goes, only paying 6.4% is even better.

I'm all in favour of improving private sector pensions to match the teacher's pension. However you can't compare apples to oranges - public sector pensions have better terms because salaries are lower, the average public sector pension is worth £5000 a year compared to £7k a year in the private sector (I think, can't be sure of figures). Teacher's pensions are higher still because teaching is a high-value profession (despite what obnoxious right-wingtards on here claim) and their pensions are still lower than what you'd expect to get in other high value professions such as Medicine, Engineering, Law.

Do we really want to get into the pay argument again? Because we all know that one side can provide some evidence while the other goes "That isn't true!" (The side able to provide evidence being the one you are not on btw.)

Raising the age at which pensions can be claimed might well end up being a compromise agreement with no pay cuts. They aren't going to get that by rolling over though, the government have backed them into this corner.

It seems that amiga was right about how negotiations are going expect he was wrong on which side is the intractable one.

 

[RDM]

back to striking- my view is that if we had stronger unions / more democratic work places (in all sectors) we'd have far less strikes, far happier workers, and more productive workers. Overall, a better workforce with everyone bar the very top level 'better off'. This is what we should all be pushing in my view.

What needs to change first is this stupid "Us & Them" attitude that is so prevelant in this country. Everything has to be confronational because the workers view the management as the enemy and the management view the workers as the enemy.

But as far as pensions go, we are all living longer so either pensions have to come down or their costs have to go up. Why do you think it is fair that the private sectore have to live with this reality while the public sector expect the tax payer to make up the difference?