Suspected burglar stabbed to death by homeowner

arknor · 23 Jun 2011 at 15:47

Pigeon_Killer said:
Treating it as murder? Should be given a medal for ridding the world of another piece of scum.

indeed the burglary/mugging /theft/twock would almost disapear if it was considered acceptable to beat the crap out of the people commiting such crimes.
people only commit such acts because the punishment is so small for the gains

gambitt · 23 Jun 2011 at 15:47

TheVoice said:
Let's all be grateful that things aren't as they seem then.

Do you speak from experience?

Participant · 23 Jun 2011 at 15:50

Borrish said:
I don't get what the problem is? Some-one was killed in their home so it's hardly surprising they've been arrested. It seems a bit of a none story to me until they actually charge him with something.

Discussion of the issue pending an outcome - you unfamiliar?

Freakbro · 23 Jun 2011 at 15:51

\Thread by AcidHell2 tbh

The rest of you are just foaming at the mouth over a sensationalist headline.

Read AcidHell's posts and understand why they have to be "arrested" - to find out actually what happened regarding the death of this person. They haven't been charged, sentenced or sent down...(come back and foam at the mouth if they do

)

BigglesPiP · 23 Jun 2011 at 15:53

So long as he didn't chase him down the street repeatedly stabbing him, I would hope there will be no case heard for the Murder.

Robbo · 23 Jun 2011 at 15:54

People aren't really arguing over the fact they have been arrested, that is understandable and fair enough, even though I'm not sure it should be murder right away, should it?

The problem is that the homeowner is going to get the book thrown at him no matter what the circumstances (most likely).

Abraham · 23 Jun 2011 at 15:55

Rusty_Noob said:
I think the amount of times he was stabbed should have a factor in what the decision is.

If he stabbed the guy once to warn him off per se (although stabbing is a little excessive) then it's very unfortunate. If the burgular was stabbed 5+ times then he surely knew it would likely result in death.

It's still dependent on circumstance, acting in fear of his own and his families lives, wildly lashing out 5 times in quick succession could probably fall within reasonable force, stabbing him once, he collapses, then again 4 more times, probably not.
There are no hard and fast rules, everything is judged on a case by case basis, which is why they had to be arrested, even if they may not end up being prosecuted.

Glaucus · 23 Jun 2011 at 15:57

Robbo said:
People aren't really arguing over the fact they have been arrested, that is understandable and fair enough, even though I'm not sure it should be murder right away, should it?

The problem is that the homeowner is going to get the book thrown at him no matter what the circumstances (most likely).

I think scorza would disagree, he doesn't think they should be arrested.

Lots of people don't get charged, so I dont see how you can say that. It's just doesn't get much media attention. Where getting your mates and baseball bat and then going and finding them, or a shot gun wound to the back when they are trying to run away, gets lots of media attention and in no way can be said to be reasonable.

Robbo · 23 Jun 2011 at 15:58

You would be charged with manslaughter either way though, wouldn't you? I didn't think charges were dropped if you've killed someone, regardless of the reason?

Glaucus · 23 Jun 2011 at 15:59

Robbo said:
You would be charged with manslaughter either way though, wouldn't you? I didn't think charges were dropped if you've killed someone, regardless of the reason?

No idea to be honest, is it taken to Court and up to a jury to decide if it's reasonable?

Perhaps found guilty would be a better word.

Bulldog14 · 23 Jun 2011 at 15:59

TheYoungster said:
hit hime with a wooden baseball bat, leave him on the street, thats my plan.
Hopfully I'll never have to take action on it as id crap myself

Unfortunately the americans have it right on this frontier, allbeit to an extreeme. I htink if you give a burgular a good beating for trying to rob you, you should be fine, how does it sound when you beat up the robber, then he goes to the old bill!

Don't kid yourself about how things work in North America. I'm from there and grew up with guns in the house. If you shoot someone who breaks into your home there are reprocussions. It's not like the police show up, gather up the body, and pat you on the back. You WILL be taken in for questioning and be just as liable for murder as anywhere in the western world. Far too many people watch far too much TV and thinks that when someone enters your home that you are given a blank check to kill them in the States. Take some time and read thru crime reports on the smaller local American news sites and you'll see there is just as much controversy around killing someone as the UK.

Borrish · 23 Jun 2011 at 16:00

My point is that there's little point flying into some preemptive rage about how stupid home defense law is when the law hasn't even accused him of anything yet. They're under investigation which is to be expected considering the circumstances. If it was genuine self defense then he has nothing to worry about. To be honest the article doesn't give enough information to judge what happened anyway.

cheets64 · 23 Jun 2011 at 16:00

I would do the same if someone attempted to break into my parents house or tried to steal my car.

Amnesia · 23 Jun 2011 at 16:02

Freakbro said:
\Thread by AcidHell2 tbh

The rest of you are just foaming at the mouth over a sensationalist headline.

Read AcidHell's posts and understand why they have to be "arrested" - to find out actually what happened regarding the death of this person. They haven't been charged, sentenced or sent down...(come back and foam at the mouth if they do )

How many people are criticizing the police for arresting them ?

i think your foaming was a bit premature

ubersonic · 23 Jun 2011 at 16:04

Householder would have grounds to claim self defence imo:

There has been confusion about what is permitted under the law when an individual is acting in self-defence. Some have even suggested that the law gives more protection to criminals than to honest citizens acting to protect themselves, their family and their homes. There is a belief that citizens in the USA are in a much stronger position as far as the law on self-defence is concerned.
However, although not enshrined in statute, the law in this country is very clear:

> an individual is entitled to protect themselves or others;
> they may inflict violence and/or use weapons to do so;
> the level of violence may include killing the assailant; and,
> an individual may even act pre-emptively and still be found to have acted in self-defence.

If a group of masked men broke into my house where my wife/child were I would make with the stabbing too.

Werewolf · 23 Jun 2011 at 16:06

shifty_uk said:
It doesn't matter if you stab them once or ten times. In the arm or in the heart. Defending your lifelong posessions or your family.

If they die of their wounds you will get sent down.

RUBBISH

You can use any level of force that is reasonable under the circumstances.
That is ultimately left to the Jury (if it ever reaches that far), who can and do give the home-owner/resident massive amounts of leeway - look up Kenneth Noye sometime for a prime example of that.
If you're in the kitchen and grab a knife, that's reasonable if they approach you, likewise a baseball bat - stabbing them in the back as they try to get out the window/door, or stabbing them repeatedly once they are on the ground and not moving isn't.

The key thing is, to stop once they are no longer a threat and inform the Police ASAP - leaving someone bleeding on your doorstep whilst you pop out for a quiet pint isn't going to do anything to convince anyone that you acted in self defence (one of the big problems with Tony Martin was that he didn't bother telling anyone he'd shot someone, well that and shooting them in the back with an illegally held firearm).

One of the main reasons the Police tend to treat such cases as murder, at least initially is fairly simple, until they've got the evidence collected they don't usually have any real idea what actually happened.
Arresting someone also confers the immediate right to a free lawyer in this sort of case, which is also of a huge potential benefit.

Street · 23 Jun 2011 at 16:09

Good on the home owner. Just hope he doesn't get sent down for it!

Only wish I'd been able to do the same to the scum that broke into my house last month and stole my car!

grudas · 23 Jun 2011 at 16:12

and they get surprised when the crime increases.. of course it frickin does.. :/ you can't defend your self at all.. and thats exactly what the burglars know thats why they break in take what they want and get away with it.. while the home owner looses his belongings and police never finds the burglars and even if they do all they get is 3 months community service.. :/

how the heck are you supposed to defend your self and your property then? NICELY ASK THEM OUT>?

vorticalspace · 23 Jun 2011 at 16:15

The point most people are overlooking is that if faced with this situation, which I imagine would be extremely stressful, how is a mere home owner expected to react in a cool & considered manner.

Personally, for me to consider stabbing somebody, even a masked intruder, would be such a life changing event that i'm not sure how I would react given that set of circumstances.

The Police for example are highly trained, and yet in pressure situations they sometimes get it wrong.

Glaucus · 23 Jun 2011 at 16:17

vorticalspace said:
The point most people are overlooking is that if faced with this situation, which I imagine would be extremely stressful, how is a mere home owner expected to react in a cool & considered manner.

.

how are people overlooking it? I think only one person said killing isn't right what ever the circumstances.

It's simply irrelevant ATM as they haven't been charged.