Is this disabled parking space official?

[DavidMarq]

I would be appealing this one all the way as the restriction is not signed according to the law and in my opinion is therefore unenforceable.

As has been previously mentioned the bay markings are crap, I would be asking the council which of the possible 3 permitted bay diagrams, 1028, 1032 and 1033 they claim to have marked on the road.

Further to the above the upright sign which is purporting to be a sign to diagram 661A is also in my opinion not a valid traffic sign or prescribed variation thereof. One issue with it is that according to the traffic signs manual the wheelchair must be facing to the right, this however may be considered de minimis. A more serious issue is that the legend "Free parking" is not a prescribed variation of a sign to diagram 661A so the council would need approval from the Secretary of State for Transport to use it which they almost certainly do not have.

As it is the non-prescribed legend that caused the confusion then that to me makes a very strong point for appeal.

I can't remember off the top of my head whether the Stoke PCN complies with the regulations so it is worth the OP posting a scan of both sides with the PCN number and the VRN redacted and I'll take a look.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

WOW I love OCUK -

 

[[TW]Fox]

He means post the PCN - ie the penalty notice

 

[Kenai]

He means post the PCN - ie the penalty notice

Are you sure?

Maybe he's just really keen to see the offer/ad on the back of the ticket

 

[Scania]

 

[SexyGreyFox]

He means post the PCN - ie the penalty notice

Duh

 

[SexyGreyFox]

DavidMarq - Can you link to where you have seen the signs and road markings please?
I've downloaded the big PDF off the site but can't see any signs.

 

[Fr0dders]

you left the reg in further down under the payment slip

 

[DavidMarq]

Aye, the Penalty Charge Notice...

Also I just had a quick scan through the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) that is posted on the TPT site covering Hanley and if the 2002 Consolidation Order has not been seriously amended then it is utter pants and repleat with references dating back to repealed sections of RTA 1991.

It would definately be worth requiring them to supply a full copy of the extant TRO, complete with all Schedules, Maps and Amendment Orders in any appeal that is made. Or pop down to the Principle Council Office and demand that they provide you with a copy. It is a publicly accesisble document, which you have a right to view and take a copy of by virtue of s.225-s.228 LGA 1974 iirc.

 

[Fr0dders]

Aye, the Penalty Charge Notice...

Also I just had a quick scan through the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) that is posted on the TPT site covering Hanley and if the 2002 Consolidation Order has not been seriously amended then it is utter pants and repleat with references dating back to repealed sections of RTA 1991.

It would definately be worth requiring them to supply a full copy of the extant TRO, complete with all Schedules, Maps and Amendment Orders in any appeal that is made. Or pop down to the Principle Council Office and demand that they provide you with a copy. It is a publicly accesisble document, which you have a right to view and take a copy of by virtue of s.225-s.228 LGA 1974 iirc.

err.... come again ?

In english now please ?

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Aye, the Penalty Charge Notice...

Also I just had a quick scan through the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) that is posted on the TPT site covering Hanley and if the 2002 Consolidation Order has not been seriously amended then it is utter pants and repleat with references dating back to repealed sections of RTA 1991.

It would definately be worth requiring them to supply a full copy of the extant TRO, complete with all Schedules, Maps and Amendment Orders in any appeal that is made. Or pop down to the Principle Council Office and demand that they provide you with a copy. It is a publicly accesisble document, which you have a right to view and take a copy of by virtue of s.225-s.228 LGA 1974 iirc.

You're my hero but [TW]Fox will argue that you're wrong

 

[sigma]

You're my hero but [TW]Fox will argue that you're wrong

And you'll never admit that you were wrong.

 

[DavidMarq]

Detailed guidance on the sign is here.

Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3

Page 59

The law is here.

TSRGD 2002, Sched 2

Page 104

Also the PCN has Reg 3(2)(b) issues, however the TPT adjudicators seem reluctant to go for these as a finding on Reg 3(2)(b) would invalidate almost all PCNs issued outside of London

The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, Reg 3

I'll give more detail on Reg 3(2)(b) tomorrow as off to bed soon.

 

[[TW]Fox]

You're my hero but [TW]Fox will argue that you're wrong

Not at all - because he's not wrong. The fact it was a completely numpty place to park and we all had a good laugh at you doesn't have any bearing on whether any legal loopholes exist.

Plus he's confirmed that it shouldn't even say 'Free Parking' as the parking is free anyway, which goes back to our chat earlier

 

[DavidMarq]

You're my hero but [TW]Fox will argue that you're wrong

That will be that same [TW]Fox that posted that Blue Badge Holders can't park on loading restrictions earlier in the thread.

That may well be what the Blue Badge Handbook, the Highway Code and the DfT advises, but in law it is wrong as long as they are not parked for the purpose of loading and unloading...

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Plus he's confirmed that it shouldn't even say 'Free Parking' as the parking is free anyway, which goes back to our chat earlier

Not in Stoke.
You can park on yellow lines for free as long as you aren't obstructing but in places like that in the OP you usually have to pay if you have a blue badge.
According to my mate (blue badge) if he parked out of the imaginary box and didn't pay he would be fined.
If he parked on the other side of the road on yellow lines he would be OK.

And they aren't legal loopholes - the sign and road markings are wrong.

 

[Fr0dders]

That will be that same [TW]Fox that posted that Blue Badge Holders can't park on loading restrictions earlier in the thread.

That may well be what the Blue Badge Handbook, the Highway Code and the DfT advises, but in law it is wrong as long as they are not parked for the purpose of loading and unloading...

Yes but the law defines that places that have a loading restriction are likely to be very busy and thus not suitable to have disabled parked cars on them.

Doesn't matter that they aren't there to load or unload. Its a specific exclusion to the laws that allow a blue badge holder to park on double yellows.

 

[DavidMarq]

Yes but the law defines that places that have a loading restriction are likely to be very busy and thus not suitable to have disabled parked cars on them.


Doesn't matter that they aren't there to load or unload. Its a specific exclusion to the laws that allow a blue badge holder to park on double yellows.

To your first point, which law?

And to your second, what specific exclusion are you referring to?

 

[[TW]Fox]

That will be that same [TW]Fox that posted that Blue Badge Holders can't park on loading restrictions earlier in the thread.

Direct.gov.uk says:

•on single or double yellow lines for up to three hours, except where there is a ban on loading or unloading

So really you can hardly blame me for holding that opinion

 

[DavidMarq]

Direct.gov.uk says:



So really you can hardly blame me for holding that opinion

And to be honest they should know better as they have been informed as such on several occasions

The DfT have admitted that their advice on this point is somewhat dubious. Notting County Council ran away from an application for review on an adjudication on a related and very similar matter quite recently as they knew the adjudicator was about to find against them.

The matter needs to go to the High Court for proper resolution. But as things stand the law as written trumps all the guidance.