Nadine Dorries abortion proposals

[Vonhelmet]

Women receiving advice from pregnancy counselling centres run by faith-based and anti-abortion organisations are subjected to scaremongering, emotive language and inaccurate information about abortion, according to an undercover investigation by a pro-choice charity.

That is a bit low even for the Grauniad.

Why is it "a bit low"?

Shock news! Pro-choice group doesn't like what pro-lifers are doing!

How about some independent research?

 

[Danthus]

Abortion is the new contraception.

Quite ironic considering the availability of contraception.

 

[Vonhelmet]

I don't think, I know they do in that instance.

It's gotten so bad that if you watch the video, the abortion centre relies on volunteer security guards or, "abortion clinic escorts" to protect users of planned parenthood from the scathing attacks abortion protesters try.

These include dressing up as abortion clinic escorts and escorting them to their clinic rather than the Planned Parenthood centre, actively attempting to mimic the clothing and jackets warned by the official escorts.

- this girl has asked where the PP centre is, an official escort tries to show her the way, the tall man who is wearing the same jacket pretending to be with the escort tries to block her path and says things to her.

Deep South American Christians are hardly representative of Christianity as a whole, or Christians in this country, but I'm sure it makes a convenient straw man for you, so on you go.

 

[Tefal]

The article barely mentions religion, and yet that's what gets leapt on... Good work OCUK.

Err are you being deliberately dense?


The article may not but the op does, and the op clearly has an axe to grind voer religion and has steered the thread that way.


but of course once again people ignore what actually happened to to do the ol "good work OcUK" as apparently we're all to blame.

in fact aside from the op only one other person even mentions religion.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Quite ironic considering the availability of contraception.

Responsibility isn't fashionable any more, Grandad.

 

[hurfdurf]

Maybe we should also be looking at the reason for the abortion?

Poor sex education in this country in comparison with the rest of the developed world combined with the standard reasons for unwanted pregnancy found across the world

 

[Tefal]

Why is it "a bit low"?

Shock news! Pro-choice group doesn't like what pro-lifers are doing!

How about some independent research?

that's exactly what he just said

he said it;s a bit low the guardian said the pro life clinics are lying based purely on the pro choice's investigation not independent research.

 

[dowie]

Any decent charities will have controls in place to mitigate the conflict of interest.

sure just like banks have controls in place to....

people are people at the end of the day - there is still an inherent conflict of interest in an institution that benefits financially from one course of action being taken attempting to offer impartial advice.

I don't see why advice shouldn't be provided independently - it would make sense if it is supposed to be impartial.

AFAIK the woman behind this didn't have a religious motive and tbh... religion has no part to play either as far as impartial advice is concerned.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Err are you being deliberately dense?

The article may not but the op does, and the op clearly has an axe to grind voer religion and has steered the thread that way.

Well... That's pretty much my point. He's picked an article with next to nothing to with religion, and then used that as the crux of his argument in which he grinds his axe against religion.

It's also slightly amusing that's he's whining about the Christian wing of the Tory party, when the article only mentions religious folk in the context of Catholic labour MPs.

but of course once again people ignore what actually happened to to do the ol "good work OcUK" as apparently we're all to blame.

Figure of speech...

in fact aside from the op only one other person even mentions religion.

Fair cop.

 

[Vonhelmet]

that's exactly what he just said

he said it;s a bit low the guardian said the pro life clinics are lying based purely on the pro choice's investigation not independent research.

Clearly I'm off the ball today in determining who is actually criticising what

 

[Tefal]

Indeed, I hope you're more on form when sorting out peoples taxes


Although lately it is getting harder to sell when some has missed a point and when they're just deliberately acting retarded so they can argue a point that doesn't exist just to try and score points.


I blame Dolph.

 

[dowie]

FYI - this proposal isn't about religion:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14745675

Ms Dorries has also written on her blog that "thousands" of women seeking abortions "feel they were put on a conveyor belt to the operating theatre the minute they stepped through the clinic door".

But she insisted her stance was not about religious belief, writing: "No organisation which is paid for carrying out abortions and no organisation that thinks it's appropriate to bring God into a counselling session with a vulnerable woman, should be allowed anywhere near the counselling room."

She seems pretty much against religious orgs being involved in counseling for the same reason she is against abortion providers being involved. Impartial advice should be impartial - I don't see the issue tbh...

 

[Vonhelmet]

FYI - this proposal isn't about religion:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14745675

She seems pretty much against religious orgs being involved in counseling for the same reason she is against abortion providers being involved. Impartial advice should be impartial - I don't see the issue tbh...

It depends, really. If a religious person wants counselling from a religious body, then they shouldn't be prohibited from seeking it, in the same way that secular people are at liberty to seek advice from secular bodies.

So long as everything is clear and upfront, then I don't see that there should be any restrictions one way or another.

 

[Tefal]

It depends, really. If a religious person wants counselling from a religious body, then they shouldn't be prohibited from seeking it, in the same way that secular people are at liberty to seek advice from secular bodies.

So long as everything is clear and upfront, then I don't see that there should be any restrictions one way or another.

either way the proposal makes no claims to either of those.


just that anyone with a financial involvement with abortion shouldn't be doing the counselling.


problem seems to be that charities that do counselling also help provide abortions, so they'd have to be split into separate entities which would be complicated for donations.


which is why this is a good idea but only if say made known now and giving everyone involved a year or two to set up and get ready for the change, ratehr than suddenly removing the counselling section.

 

[stockhausen]

Its all part of the same recruitment drive for religion, which is thankfully dying out over time as people get smarter and informed, but recruitment equals financial incentives in the long run.

True dat, I had overlooked the 'Pass the plate on the left-hand side' angle


As it happens, I am aware of at least one General Practice which under pressure from a couple of committed Christian partners provided facilities to an allegedly "independent" advice provision service. Following complaints from patients and a subsequent investigation, they have now terminated the arrangement.

Next, I made my way to my final appointment with LIFE. This pro-life Christian charity has 30 care centres and offers ‘non-judgmental, non-directive’ advice from trained staff and volunteers, and ‘accurate information when requested’.

My appointment with the very friendly ‘skilled listener’ Sheila left my head spinning and my body numb. I was subjected to 70 minutes of unrelenting interrogation and pressure.

For more than 20 minutes, Sheila asked a series of personal questions, ranging from where I went to university to the relationship status of my brothers and sisters. It then became clear why she was asking so much about my parents and my boyfriend’s parents.

‘So your baby’s their first grandchild?’ she asked. She then dropped in an anecdote about a young couple whose five-week-old twins had brought ‘so much joy’ after LIFE had helped them.

She talked about the baby as ‘a proper little person’, said she ‘couldn’t remember’ what the legal abortion limit was, and explained how she couldn’t take me down the abortion route because ‘our group has total respect for life from beginning to end’.

She finished by telling me that I needed to tell my boyfriend ‘tonight’ that I was pregnant — and warning me about all the relationships that break up because of abortion.

Like all the counsellors I saw, I truly believe Sheila cared about my wellbeing. But I felt manipulated. LIFE describes itself as non-directive (i.e. it won’t tell you what to do), but my experience suggests the opposite.

LIFE looks forward to a world in which women who are faced with a crisis pregnancy are given as much practical, financial and emotional support as is necessary to help them bring their pregnancy to term.

Incidentally, I believe that the aforementioned 'LIFE' is now assisting the government with unbiased and down-to-earth advice on sexual health. I suspect that this will consist of the advice to 'Just say "NO!" and keep your knees together'

 

[dowie]

It depends, really. If a religious person wants counselling from a religious body, then they shouldn't be prohibited from seeking it, in the same way that secular people are at liberty to seek advice from secular bodies.

no one is saying they shouldn't be and I'm sure religous women would likely consult such orgs - but this is in regards to the advice/ counseling offered when seeking an abortion - that advice should be impartial

At present, women seeking an abortion need the consent of two doctors, which can be obtained through an NHS clinic or GP surgery, or at a private provider, like Marie Stopes or the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS), affiliated with the NHS.

In both cases, staff have a duty to provide counselling to the women who use them - and under Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists' guidelines that advice should be impartial, objective and unbiased.

The concern being that abortion providers are at risk of not being impartial in their advice.

 

[hurfdurf]

Deep South American Christians are hardly representative of Christianity as a whole, or Christians in this country, but I'm sure it makes a convenient straw man for you, so on you go.

I do not want to see anything even remotely resembling that in the UK.

Deep Southern Christianity is what happens when Christianity is left to run rampant and not opposed. A lot of Christians in the UK would quite happily go along with it but are not willing to put effort or be vocal about making it a reality in the UK thankfully.

It is Christianity taken to its logical conclusion.

 

[kwerk]

That's good but they should extend it to where they will only pay to provide abortions for underprivileged ethnic minorities, to help them overcome white privilege and institutional racism.

 

[hurfdurf]

That's good but they should extend it to where they will only pay to provide abortions for underprivileged ethnic minorities, to help them overcome white privilege and institutional racism.

So poor white kids are suddenly marginalised, yea great idea bro!

 

[lttlejoe]

I would think that at a time like when a female is contemplating a termination, it is vital that NO influence, be it religious or financial, is placed on a woman in that position.

I would say arrest and imprison any religious thinking person or close down any group which tries to influence a girl's decision by telling her she is a murderer etc by having a termination.
I'm quite sure she is already under severe pressure and stress in having to make the life changing decision so, adding to it with religious nonsense could grossly affect her mentally, for the rest of her life!
The same would go for anyone or group with a financially vested interest which would give out advice to procure financial gain.

What a female does need in this situation is access to sound and open independent advice, free from all vested interests or religious bias.