Brother of Mark Duggan "The police were clearly operating a shoot to kill policy that day."

[Castiel]

Shooting someone in the abdomen isn't a shoot-to-kill policy. He could have died just as easily if not more so if shot in the legs for example.

People do not seem to realise just what getting shot means, if a bullet nicks an artery, you are a dead man and you are less likely (although not much) to survive a body wound than one in the thigh or above chest height.

Much depends on the weapon and bullet used as well. If it was me doing the shooting, he would have been less one head and probably most of his upper torso. That is a shoot-to-kill policy, not what happened to Mr Duggan.

Quick tip, don't want to get shot by Police, don't carry a gun.

 

[Tribune]

Bahh, had an idea it was wrong. I'm going back 20+ years or so when I used to shoot. By the time I wanted to go back to it I no longer could.

 

[Tribune]

Much depends on the weapon and bullet used as well.

Quick tip, don't want to get shot by Police, don't carry a gun.

Indeed it does. With the new hollow points being adopted, if an arm gets hit centrally you can pretty much wave bye bye to using it fully again.

 

[Robbo]

Don't carry a loaded gun in public - don't get shot.

He deserved what he got. One less scumbag for the police to have to deal with.

Some of his family are probably just as bad or have something to do with it, I hope they're properly investigated as well.

 

[Castiel]

You can be shot in the foot and have an exit wound in the calf or shot in the chest and it could exit the groin.

A bullet will take the path of least resistance and will ricochet of bone etc. Shooting in the foot can kill almost as easily as being shot in the chest.

Exactly. I have a gunshot wound that entered my lower arm and exited my lower arm.....on the same side. The larger exit wound being several inches above the smaller entry wound.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Surely not quite as much chance, I'd take a chance with my foot than my vital organs thank you very much.

What bullets do UK police use? FMJ or do they opt for HP to limit misplaced shots?

I forget there exact name but they dump their energy on impact and won't go through the body and out.

A FMJ would likely do that, assuming it wasn't designed to tumble.

 

[utajoker]

pretty simple.

carry a gun, risk getting shot.

 

[^TANK^]

Mark Duggan was a scummy toilet floater. The Police officer that shot him deserves a medal for ridding us of one less gun toting drug dealer on the streets, humanity 1 - 0 toilet floaters.

 

[rexehuk]

He needed dermal armor. His fault tbh, should have got a praxis kit.






In all seriousness, if you carry a gun, accept the consequences.

 

[Destination]

Good.

Agreed.
Known ganster with a loaded illegal firearm.
Shot dead by police.
I wouldn't waste money on an investigation.

 

[Andy90]

Hmm I don't think there is a non-lethal part of the body to be shot in? Shoot for the leg and you could hit the Femoral Artery, shoot for the arms and you could hit the Brachial Artery.

Shoot at any point of the body and you could find out that a round could strike a major bone and ricochet through the body on a new trajectory (Poor old PC Yvonne Fletcher actually had this happen to her when she was shot by a Libyan 'Diplomat' years ago).

Fact is if you're a Firearms Officer challenging a person with a Firearm then you have to nullify the threat.

Whilst I understand that Mr Duggan may be upset at the death of his brother, I would suggest he wait for an Inquest to see what the Policies and witnesses say.

 

[Dabbles]

My dad's mate was an armed response copper and he told me years ago that the orders are (and always have been) 'If you are going to shoot somebody, you are aiming to kill them. If you don't intend to kill them, don't shoot them.'

Now, obviously there is the 'reasonable force' argument and this is taken into account at the inquest if someone is shot by the police. They have to fear for their own lives or those of others in order to pull the trigger. He also told me 'there is no such thing as shoot them in the leg a bit and take them to hospital'.

Now, some people shot by the police survive, but this is purely on luck alone, not intention.

If you don't want to be shot and killed by the police then don't wave guns around at them. Simples.

EDIT: They are also trained to aim for the greatest mass, where the heart happens to be...

 

[Xelene]

Nobody is trained to shoot to wound, let alone shoot to tickle or mildly scare.

The guy was carrying a loaded gun and was a known drug dealer. Case closed. It wasn't because he was black, it was because he was a scumbag.

 

[Jay794]

This might be a bad example but, in my opinion the Police did exactly what they were supposed to, if you were a policeman or women, and someone points a gun at you, loaded or not, you're gonna shoot first

Who shot first han or greedo
Why?
Because everyone knows Humans are smarter Rodian Bounty Hunters

 

[Werewolf]

My dad's mate was an armed response copper and he told me years ago that the orders are (and always have been) 'If you are going to shoot somebody, you are aiming to kill them. If you don't intend to kill them, don't shoot them.'

Now, obviously there is the 'reasonable force' argument and this is taken into account at the inquest if someone is shot by the police. They have to fear for their own lives or those of others in order to pull the trigger. He also told me 'there is no such thing as shoot them in the leg a bit and take them to hospital'.

Now, some people shot by the police survive, but this is purely on luck alone, not intention.

If you don't want to be shot and killed by the police then don't wave guns around at them. Simples.

EDIT: They are also trained to aim for the greatest mass, where the heart happens to be...

IIRC they are trained to shoot to incapacitate as fast as possible, and with as little risk to others as possible.
That invariably means shooting for the torso, which has a very high chance of killing them - hence the "don't shoot if you don't intend to/aren't afraid of killing them", as the line between a shot that incapacitates quickly, and one that kills is extremely fine.
IIRC it's not an official "shoot to kill" policy, but the realistic knowledge that if they do open fire, the person on the receiving end is quite likely to die.

Far too many people get their knowledge of ballistics and the capabilities of guns and armed police from Hollywood, which often has shots made by normal cops with pistols at a moments notice that would put a world class sniper with a customised rifle and time to aim to shame.

My basic opinion is very simple

If you're ever confronted by an armed police officer, you don't make anything that could be seen as a threatening move, and if he says to do something, you do it (carefully and trying to avoid making him nervous).

 

[Xelene]

If you're ever confronted by an armed *, you don't make anything that could be seen as a threatening move, and if he says to do something, you do it (carefully and trying to avoid making him nervous).

* = insert police/soldier/bankrobber here. People with weapons training are trained to shoot at the the torso because you are less likely to miss and it has a high likelyhood of putting the other person out of action. You don't care whether they are wounded or not, just that they are no longer a threat.

 

[Meridian]

I forget there exact name but they dump their energy on impact and won't go through the body and out.

A FMJ would likely do that, assuming it wasn't designed to tumble.

Someone mentioned hollow-points? If so, it's (perhaps) interesting to note that they are banned in warfare by the Geneva Convention. Fine for armed mid-level drug dealers though. Oh sorry, am I being Prosecution Biased?


M

 

[RDM]

Someone mentioned hollow-points? If so, it's (perhaps) interesting to note that they are banned in warfare by the Geneva Convention. Fine for armed mid-level drug dealers though. Oh sorry, am I being Prosecution Biased?


M

But perfectly legal for law enforcement and somewhat desirable too as they will stop an armed assailant much more effectively with less risk of a round passing through. But I am sure you knew that.

 

[dowie]

His mother Pam Duggan, 53, said: "I just want the police to admit that they killed my son. Why didn't the police shoot him in the foot instead of in the chest?"

LOL

Also if the police had a shoot to kill policy then why was he only shot twice and in the chest...

I think these people are completely deluded - its this sort of mentality that caused a bunch of people to march up to a police station, on a Saturday evening, to demand 'answers' and 'justice' when the investigation had only begun, thus kicking off the riots.

 

[Danthus]

Someone mentioned hollow-points? If so, it's (perhaps) interesting to note that they are banned in warfare by the Geneva Convention. Fine for armed mid-level drug dealers though. Oh sorry, am I being Prosecution Biased?


M

They used Soft Points, not Hollow Points.