Soldato
Dr Nick is alive and well it seems!.
Scrap NHS reforms, doctors tell Lords.
- Thread starter stockhausen
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Soldato
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Suspiciously like 'senior civil servants' who don't want the civil service to change.
It would be like stating the BMA have reservations, of course they do, as it'll take them five years to work out what they actually should be doing in the first place.
Slow archaic creatures, unable to adapt, or to improve unless it is forced upon them.
I didn't say asking for evidence is biased I said you were and your post history is ample evidence.
While I do (based on evidence) believe the NHS is a flawed system and in need of dramatic reform to align with the more successful european systems to bring our death rates and care standards more in line with our world position (Top 6 as opposed to barely top 20), my mind is changeable if evidence comes up to show that our healthcare performance isn't rubbish compared to international standards.
This fact doesn't make me biased, it makes me evidence driven. That you have yet to change my mind is because you haven't brought any good evidence to do so, not that it cannot be changed.
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- 30 Jul 2006
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Absolute 100% rubbish. Most of the GPs I know are on the same income as they were five years ago.
I would agree entirely that when New Labour foolishly decided that targets and QOF were the answer to absolutely everything and that out-of-hours cover could be more effectively and economically provided by health centres staffed by salaried junior doctors they screwed up in every possible way. However, they have long since clawed back the bribes they offered GPs at the time.
Incidentally, I suspect that you may be thinking about GP surgeries that include a pharmacy - now there IS a gold-mine
Again, an observation that is staggering in its blind, uncomprehending ignorance
Doctors in A&E are great at referring patients to specialists who are specialists in one area - nothing more, nothing less. If you don't believe me, ask people whether they would rather go to A&E or their GP.
Most GPs hate the paperwork that has been foisted onto them in order to meet quotas. As to the suggestion that "they essentially run businesses" - have you ever heard of Practice Managers? Most GPs tend to make lousy businessmen or women. Once again, the exceptions have often added a pharmacy as mentioned above.
Dear God, an intelligent observation - at last - based on what has gone before, entirely unexpected
Patients may not accept it. However, it is pretty much spot on.
I have no idea where you have got your ill-informed ideas and prejudices from but I have no doubt that you have found a solution by only ever visiting A&E where you doubtless get the care and attention that you crave and so richly deserve.
As to the people who suggest that any GP who opposes the changes being forced on them by the Tories is simply manifesting greedy, selfish self-interest, what about the occasional GP who supports the changes? I would suggest that that has far more basis in self-interest.
I know of a couple of GPs who are just dying to offer additional services entirely unrelated to medicine - they can't wait to get some of the money available from injecting Botox, using Lasers to remove unsightly body hair, etc., etc., etc.
They also know that there will be utter chaos and a complete lack of control and accountability if and when they get control of the NHS purse strings and they will have all too brief a chance to milk the system for all it is worth before the Government realises that their highly paid management consultants have one again got it wrong
Caporegime
These NHS reforms remove the government's duty to provide a health service - this is just the first step to tearing down the NHS and replacing it with a US style healthcare system. In twenty years time the NHS will not exist if these reforms go ahead.
@Dolph - if you want to talk about evidence lets talk about the evidence that the more successful (as you put it) European healthcare systems spend a lot more money on healthcare than we do.
Lets talk about when Russia and China "liberated" their healthcare systems and handed them over to the free market, the evidence is that there was a very real detrimental impact on public health as a result.
@Dolph - if you want to talk about evidence lets talk about the evidence that the more successful (as you put it) European healthcare systems spend a lot more money on healthcare than we do.
Lets talk about when Russia and China "liberated" their healthcare systems and handed them over to the free market, the evidence is that there was a very real detrimental impact on public health as a result.
depends what type, most gps dont know an arse from an elbow.
the ones at my local surgery all type the symptoms into a computer
That's my experience, too. I've had some really bad GPs...don't they get, like, up to £100,000?
Yes, they do, and I've never objected to increased spending when coupled with reform, because let's look at another piece of evidence, healthcare spending in the UK from 1997-2007.
Spending tripled in absolute terms, doubled in real terms, and yet there was no appreciable improvements in outcomes outside of the normal 'medical advances' improvements seen everywhere.
Our problem is not that we don't spend enough, if this was true, then increased spending would result in improved outcomes. Instead, increased spending gave no improvement, which would suggest that the problems are either structural within the health service, or structural within the population. Our population isn't that different structually from other european countries, so what does that leave us with?
And yet France did this from the start of their UHC setup and has the world's best healthcare.
Are you really prepared to sacrifice people's health and lives to maintain the ideology around how the NHS must be a single, massive, monolithic entity with no choice and no variation in spite of all the evidence that this does not work?
To be fair, most GPs are the equivalent of level 1 tech support, they only really exist in the modern age of computer driven assessment through tradition.
this tbh, the tories hate the fact that rich or poor you get the same standard of healthcare from the nhs, lansley has had several meetings (probably at the lodge) with the big healthcare providers.
This half-baked dumb ass tory ideology will basically tear down every single kind of social service
rrriiiiggghhhttt i suppose phone monkeys like yourself (probably) get 5 years of medical school and post qualifying training as a GP, seriously this is without a doubt the most retarded thing I have ever seen you post, to date!
Except at no point has anyone suggested the NHS should not remain free at point of use, so this is simply a strawman position.
Who are you to judge the ability of a GP.
Are you saying that the gateway role couldn't be performed by (for example) a nurse with appropriate assessment technology? That many of the treatments currently only available on 'prescription' require significant medical training to diagnose?
The issue with GPs is not whether they have the training, but whether, in the modern world, it's necessary to have the training to complete the function they do.
There's a world of difference between saying GPs (as individuals) suck, and saying the role they currently do could not be done by other, cheaper to employ approaches.
Judge the role, not the ability of the individual. The individual is replaceable because the requirements for the role no longer match the skill level needed to actually provide the service, not because the individual lacks ability or education, but because they have far too much for the gatekeeper/common drugs prescription that makes up the role.
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Caporegime
Wow, that's an amazing assertion.
I think you are showing you have absolutely no idea of the role of a GP there Dolph. If you think the role is merely "gateway" and that this can be done by a simple decision tool to send them in you really are being clueless. You might as well then suggest they are sent to a consultant who does the next decision tool with tests that some other low paid worker(I'm sure you'd want them to be low paid) actually does and they then get a presciption automatically dished out. Heck why not get rid of doctors altogether I expect it can all be done with decision tools right.
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Surely not so?
According to the infamously left-wing Torygraph, back in September, Cameron claimed at PMQs that three leading medical organisations all supported the health reforms only to have them issue statements saying that he was misrepresenting their views.
- The RCN said the Bill “risks creating a new and expensive bureaucracy and fragmenting care”
- The Royal College of GPs said "it will lead to an increase in damaging competition, an increase in health inequalities, and to massively increased costs in implementing this new system”
- The Royal College of Physicians said “there are still areas that need to be changed”
