Occupy London! Here we go again!

UK-AL05 · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:14

Floogie said:
Maggie let heavy industry die as it was globally uncompetitive. Like all globalised developed economies we moved to a service industry and one highly specialised in finance (due to the Tories bumper deregulation in the 80's).

So you are comparing two different scenarios here. Heavy industry was on the way out so it didn't get saved. Finance on the other hand is a major source of our income and with that fact, no government is going to let it collapse or shrink to a significant degree.

Errm.

Something is on it's way out, if its loosing money!

Guess what the financial industry is doing? Being propped up by the state, because it can't finance it's self correctly. If it was managed right
it could.

You can't just say this in, or this out. It's in or its out for a reason.(Finance)

if heavy industry was earning tons, it would have not been out.

cheets64 · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:19

Worst thing Thatcher ever did that ruined this country was selling off council homes, well built homes, I mean go and look and try and find a new build council house in your area.

Its up there with Brown selling off British gold reserve.

Floogie · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:21

UK-AL05 said:
Errm.

Something is on it's way out, if its loosing money!

Guess what the financial industry is doing? Being propped up by the state, because it can't finance it's self.

You seem to attempting to qualify capitalism as only pure free-market capitalism. It's not. It's just the idealistic version of it.

A pure free-market ideology goes out the window when the effective bread basket of our economy is at risk of contracting and bringing the state to its knees.

UK-AL05 · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:21

cheets64 said:
Worst thing Thatcher ever did that ruined this country was selling off council homes, well built homes, I mean go and look and try and find a new build council house in your area.

Its up there with Brown selling off British gold reserve.

More do with supply than anything, and house prices are being propped up some how. Imagine if bank collateral just suddenly got devalued.

UK-AL05 · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:23

Floogie said:
You seem to attempting to qualify capitalism as only pure free-market capitalism. It's not. It's just the idealistic version of it.

A pure free-market ideology goes out the window when the effective bread basket of our economy is at risk of contracting and bringing the state to its knees.

Industry used to be our bread basket as well. To apply free market idealogy to one industry, then not to another is nothing short than obvious bias.

Biohazard · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:23

UK-AL05 said:
Both are! Don't really have much choice. Margret thatcher let industry fail, but not banks?

Seems hypocritical.

I like margret thatcher(Prepares to be insulted), but to follow her policies to the logical conclusion and not to be hypocritical you would have to allow the banks to fail.

So it's not the left then, it's everyone?

Right. Gotcha.

Floogie · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:23

cheets64 said:
Worst thing Thatcher ever did that ruined this country was selling off council homes, well built homes, I mean go and look and try and find a new build council house in your area.

I hope you have a mortgage old son. Otherwise Maggie's attempt at enforcing worker discipline in such a way will all be in vain.

Biohazard · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:24

UK-AL05 said:
Industry used to be our bread basket as well. To apply free market idealogy to one industry, then not to another is nothing short than obvious bias.

I agree with this strongly however.

UK-AL05 · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:27

Biohazard said:
So it's not the left then, it's everyone?

Right. Gotcha.

No, what I am saying is, everyone seems to following the interests of economically powerful people.

For the banks, if a right wing policy is in there interest, it happens.
For the banks, if a left wing policy is in there interest, it happens.

This happens, no matter if left or right is in power.

Banks used to justify a lot on right wing policy, but when it happens to them, suddenly there into left wing industry subsidy.

Floogie · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:28

UK-AL05 said:
Industry used to be our bread basket as well. To apply free market idealogy to one industry, then not to another is nothing short than obvious bias.

Yes, we shouldn't have bailed out the banks and instead dealt with the shrinking of the national economy, flight of the financial companies, the destruction of many SME's, the social unrest and a governability crisis instead. All in the name of consistency.

Good luck in your future political career.

Jokester · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:30

Floogie said:
Yes, we shouldn't have bailed out the banks and instead dealt with the shrinking of the national economy, flight of the financial companies, the destruction of many SME's, the social unrest and a governability crisis instead. All in the name of consistency.

Good luck in your future political career.

Indead, the two are in no way comparable, the finance industry has been a huge cash cow for the UK, and still is.

UK-AL05 · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:30

Floogie said:
Yes, we shouldn't have bailed out the banks and instead dealt with the shrinking of the national economy, flight of the financial companies, the destruction of many SME's, the social unrest and a governability crisis instead. All in the name of consistency.

Good luck in your future political career.

No, they should be replaced with competent banks.

UK-AL05 · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:31

Jokester said:
Indead, the two are in no way comparable, the finance industry has been a huge cash cow for the UK, and still is.

No if your bailing them out. There tax comes straight in, then straight out again.

Jokester · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:33

UK-AL05 said:
No if your bailing them out. There tax comes straight in, then straight out again.

We invested in them.

Floogie · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:34

UK-AL05 said:
No, they replaced with competent banks.

Yes they would. After the shrinking of the national economy, flight of the financial companies, the destruction of many SME's, the social unrest and a governability crisis. I wouldn't like to be around during that. What about you? Got enough cash to insulate you from the worst of it? Would it be worth it to chase some childish free-market ideal?

UK-AL05 · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:34

Jokester said:
We invested in them.

At highly over valued prices, and buying crappy overvalued bonds back in open market operations(QE)?

cheets64 · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:36

Floogie said:
I hope you have a mortgage old son. Otherwise Maggie's attempt at enforcing worker discipline in such a way will all be in vain.

I dont have a mortage I couldnt afford the deposit on my own,

I can show you what industry Britain has and that is warehousing.

I drive past a few places that use to employ people now its just to let, to let, to let.

example

That was about 2 years ago. Same area that my biked got nicked outside a gym in the middle of the day 3 weeks ago.

Not jobs, no hope, no councils house but plenty of iPhone 4s

UK-AL05 · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:36

Floogie said:
Yes they would. After the shrinking of the national economy, flight of the financial companies, the destruction of many SME's, the social unrest and a governability crisis. I wouldn't like to be around during that. What about you? Got enough cash to insulate you from the worst of it? Would it be worth it to chase some childish free-market ideal?

We will need keep bailing them out anyway, until the incentive is put back in the system. A lot of finance people agree with me.

Loss of industry also failed a lot of sme's, put people out of work etc. But it still happened, and we had a lot more people working in those industries as well.

Jokester · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:38

UK-AL05 said:
At highly over valued prices, and buying crappy overvalued bonds back(QE)?

Hardly overvalued, even now, at the depths of the current Euro crisis they're not that far off what was invested in them. If they recover to the value they were at their peak, the tax payer will make £100s of billions out of them.

QE was largely buying UK government gilts from pension funds, who then went out and bought more, because guess what? UK government gilts are still one of the most highly prized goverment bonds you can buy.

UK-AL05 · 15 Oct 2011 at 23:41

Jokester said:
Hardly overvalued, even now, at the depths of the current Euro crisis they're not that far off what was invested in them. If they recover to the value they were at their peak, the tax payer will make £100s of billions out of them.

QE was largely buying UK government gilts from pension funds, who then went out and bought more, because guess what? UK government gilts are still one of the most highly prized goverment bonds you can buy.

So wait minute, were buying back goverment bonds, giving them money to which
they are buying more goverment bonds?

Omg, this worse than I thought.
Goverment is buying bonds back at a higher price, then funds are buying more
at normal prices and pocketing the difference or buying more bonds.

That like taking 5 bonds away, then giving them 10 for free. Net gain of 5 for nothing.