Occupy London! Here we go again!

[Raoh]

We are capable of more, of course we are. The question is whether the ideas behind this protest will actually achieve more, or make things worse? They aren't giving enough details to decide properly, which always makes me suspicious.

I think details are emerging but as you say, more is needed but I think the upside is that at the very least this sparks dicussion and debate to collectively come together to work out these details. I feel the point is, it should lead to more questions (and people becoming involved) ultimately leading to solutions that are fair to all and decided by the people - not a select few or the '1%' as they say.

I believe people thrive through freedom, but equality of outcome and the elimination of 'relative' poverty cannot be achieved through freedom, only through force..

I'm not sure what you mean by 'force' exactly? Do you mean direct action? But yes, freedom is a good starting point which sets things up for collective decision making and preventing any one person, group, corporation or nation having too much power.

I think part of the problem is the pyramid structure of power where those at the top rule - in public or behind the scenes, AKA big corps/bankers - and can basically do as they wish, while the majority toil and struggle underneith supporting them. Many are fed up of that and are beginning to wake up and see what's really going on; looking at the many struggling world economies is one sign it's not working and it's most likely going to get worse shortly.

Prop it up as much as they like, the current measures they're using to try and save the Euro and EU economy, for example, is akin to throwing money on a fire. Eventally it's going to collapse (soon) which is not pleasant but is most likely the only way things are going to change. The thing to be wary of is exactly what comes after and who puts the new system in place; the people themselves or the select few? Hopefully the former, as the latter may just end up leading us back to the same place we're at now, or worse, and we know how that story goes.

I suspect that the difference between our positions isn't what we want end up with, but how we think is best to get there.

I think you may be right.
At the very least it sparks discussion and gets people thinking about these topics, ultimately I think we're all wishing to head to roughly the same place - it's just a bumpy ride along the way.

 

[dod]

But the whole idea of Communism is that you have a right not just to the necessities of life, but to the benefits of civilization. And to do so without being enslaved, and working in a pointless job, or at something you don't enjoy.

I'm just wondering what the pointless jobs are and what happens when nobody wants to do anything?

 

[Dolph]

I'm just wondering what the pointless jobs are and what happens when nobody wants to do anything?

History is very clear on that, the state starts using force to make the population comply with the free and happy ideal via the use of internment, secret security forces etc etc...

 

[mmj_uk]

Proletarian revolution IMO, whether it's occuring naturally or the masses are being manipulated.

In Marxism, the need for a proletarian revolution is a cornerstone and the first step towards dismantling the exploitations brought about by capitalism. Marxists believe that the workers of the world must unite and free themselves from capitalist oppression to create a world run by and for the working class. In the Marxist view, proletarian revolutions will inevitably happen in all capitalist countries; see world revolution.

Marxism sees the proletariat (wage labourers) and bourgeoisie as directly waging an ongoing class struggle, in that capitalists exploit workers and workers try to resist exploitation. This exploitation takes place as follows: the workers, who own no means of production of their own, must seek employment in order to make a living. They get hired by a capitalist and work for him, producing some sort of goods or services. These goods or services then become the property of the capitalist, who sells them and gets a certain amount of money in exchange. Part of this money is used to pay workers' wages, another part is used to pay production costs, and a third part is kept by the capitalist in the form of profit (or surplus value in Marxist terms). Thus the capitalist can earn money by selling the surplus (profit) from the work of his employees without actually doing any work, or in excess of his own work. Marxists argue that new wealth is created through work; therefore, if someone gains wealth that he did not work for, then someone else works and does not receive the full wealth created by his work. In other words, that "someone else" is exploited. In this way, the capitalist might turn a large profit by exploiting workers.

Communists didn't all just go extinct when the cold war ended... if anything they lured the West into a false sense of security.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Does anyone here who works feel enslaved?

Does anyone else find it odd that somebody who doesn't work keeps telling up work is slavery?

It's just nonesense. How old are you, Permabanned?

 

[Dolph]

Does anyone here who works feel enslaved?

Does anyone else find it odd that somebody who doesn't work keeps telling up work is slavery?

It's just nonesense. How old are you, Permabanned?

The only way it's slavery is the portion where our earnings are taken to pay for those who refuse to work...

 

[CREATIVE!11]

BRB i'm plugged into the society matrix which wants you to become poorer and work harder to make those on top even more money then saying oh this occupy thing is a load of nonsense. Hey guess what nobody cares you're some idiot on a forum, you're kind of people who will suffer and think they're being "rewarded" with some crapp job.

Prices are rising, salaries arn't and profits keep hitting new records for big companies yet they complain how hard it is for them to make money oh boo hoo.

Good it's about time for a revolution. Because the gap keeps growing and it's going too far with greed and corruption.

 

[Dolph]

BRB i'm plugged into the society matrix which wants you to become poorer and work harder to make those on top even more money then saying oh this occupy thing is a load of nonsense. Hey guess what nobody cares you're some idiot on a forum, you're kind of people who will suffer and think they're being "rewarded" with some ****** job.

Prices are rising, salaries arn't and profits keep hitting new records for big companies yet they complain how hard it is for them to make money oh boo hoo.

Good it's about time for a revolution. The gap keeps growing.

Meanwhile, back in the real world where the sane people live...

 

[RDM]

BRB i'm plugged into the society matrix which wants you to become poorer and work harder to make those on top even more money then saying oh this occupy thing is a load of nonsense. Hey guess what nobody cares you're some idiot on a forum, you're kind of people who will suffer and think they're being "rewarded" with some crapp job.

Prices are rising, salaries arn't and profits keep hitting new records for big companies yet they complain how hard it is for them to make money oh boo hoo.

Good it's about time for a revolution. Because the gap keeps growing and it's going too far with greed and corruption.

As a matter of interest, if our system is so terrible, why is it that we have the highest standard of living we have ever had in the history of humanity?

 

[CREATIVE!11]

Meanwhile, back in the real world where the sane people live...

Meanwhile I eat up everything the government and capitalists feed me.

 

[Dolph]

Meanwhile I eat up everything the government and capitalists feed me.

Lol... you do realise any form of socialism or communism requires far, far more government control than capitalism, right?

 

[[TW]Fox]

It's almost like blaming society for being broken and working being slavery is better than admitting your own failures. Its always someone else's fault.

 

[Robbo]

It's just nonesense. How old are you, Permabanned?

I do believe he's 16, which is why his attitude is even more annoying, it's based on absolutely nothing.

 

[ots3go]

Surely no one's actually forced to work, you could always move out of our cushy society and live in the jungle?

Enjoy the fact that a bit of labour a day will give you the lifestyle of a king. (A slight over exaggeration, but lets face it, we're not exactly Ethiopia are we.)

 

[[TW]Fox]

Meanwhile I eat up everything the government and capitalists feed me.

Keep saying that, I guess it distracts you from whatever it is that's really holding you back?

 

[Skepticx]

Plans for the protesters to camp at Finsbury Square... Where i work, that will be fun.

 

[Raoh]

Does anyone here who works feel enslaved?

To a degree yes, but that's a an issue with society's outlook on what 'life' is supposed to entail and probably a bit too 'deep' for this thread.

Does anyone else find it odd that somebody who doesn't work keeps telling up work is slavery??

Nope.
He/she is entitled to their opinion and regardless of if you work or not (I do) doesn't change that. I'm not saying it's right for people to expect a free ride and to not bother to find work - in the current system - but without knowing the circumstances it's easy to be judgemental.

It's just nonesense. How old are you, Permabanned?

Oh no you didn't.

 

[Xordium]

Put in the effort, reap the reward.

With a very heavy caveat that things could go south very quickly and rapidly spiral out of control and your reward would be nowhere to be found and all your effort would be for nothing.

 

[Energizer Bunny]

Saw them on the way in to work today. They seemed very well behaved. No issue with them protesting as long as they don't start destroying the place.

 

[ng93]

If I understand this correctly they're protesting against the current system?

That's fair enough (so long as it doesn't turn violent anyway). But what alternative system do they propose?