The great EU debate

[Biohazard]

Wait, what? You're attributing the decline of empire to the decisions of governments?

The decline isn't exclusive to the empire, although there is a relationship there. More in a lack of adjustment since the empire.

Your point here? Like I said, that's the difference. With national politics, it's not an in or out distinction, just a slight slide along a political spectrum. I can put up with slight shift within a system, but removing ourselves from the EU completely seems like a scary power to give the uninformed people, tbh.

My point?

Pointing out the difference you insinuated perhaps?

You have no evidence which to base a generalisation on the population like so.

If people are irrationally Eurosceptic, we'd be out of the EU in a stupid way (stupid, as it'd be uninformed). If people are irrationally pro-Labour (or any party, I use Labour purely as an example), the worst that happens is we get a party in power that's not that different, in the grand scheme of things, from the Lib Dems or the Conservatives... and, if people realise there's a mistake made, it's easily rectified 4/5 years later.

There are significant enough differences between Westminster swings for it to impede growth and a centre line policy in the long term.

Either which your assumptions about the general public at large, or your views on which level of franchise is inherrently more complex or risky than others are largely irrelevent. There is precident across the EU in which member states should hold a referendum for a mandate. The UK should not be the only country considered too stupid to have it.

I honestly don't know what you're saying, here. Have you miswritten something, or am I being stupid?

I meant to write "itself" not "it's", the point being the UK voting population could do itself significant damage regardless to what it has done in the past by staying away from the extreme / fringe parties. That's not to say the scope isn't there, which because of trends you seem to think isn't. Imagine the BNP in power, that would damage this country significantly. We haven't done it, but it doesn't mean we can't.

I did trust Gordon Brown, as it happens. Not that I've ever voted Labour, or was a fan of everything he did (well, I disagree with a fair bit!). But you're asking about trust, and I did/do think he tried his hardest, was a very clever bloke and was trustworthy. I know it's possible to say x, y and z promised a, b and c... but look, they lied. I can forgive things like that, though.

So where do we go from here? You think people too stupid, and Gordon Brown trustworthy enough. I am the polar opposite, how do we decide who's opinion is right?

Why does there have to be a referendum on political union to the EU? If you're saying our politicians fail to do stuff right here, so shouldn't be trusted to be involved in decision making re: Europe, why should we trust them with issues here? If they're so bad, and the public engaged enough to understand, why are they electable now?

Because it's the one thing that doesn't have a proper democratic mandate from the UK.

I'm saying they are no infalable as seems to be the running impression in here (You unwashed public are too thick, they aren't). Well it so happens the man to sign it wrecked the UK economy at the same time, so it isn't all a hedgerow of roses. No alternative would be the answer to the rest I'd guess, but it's all subjective on your political point of view of course. Which is another reason for it to go to a referendum.

I agree with what you say about UKIP, but why has no other major party backed their key policies? Why has no party been established to campaign for us to leave the EU, in a better way than UKIP has managed? You'd've thought a minor party, or a major one, would have done well adopting the policy, if it'd be so well received, no?

Most people cling onto hope of the Tories anti-EU backbenchers growing a backbone I guess.

 

[StriderX]

People trust politicians?

I've lost all hope in the UK, let alone the EU at this time.

 

[Biohazard]

TORY MPs are preparing to defy Prime Minister David Cameron and push for a referendum on Britain’s continued membership of the European Union, in a debate in the Commons next week.


The Commons back-bench business committee has ordered a debate on the issue for 27 October, after more than 100,000 people signed a petition demanding a choice.

It could potentially put pressure on the government at a time when Mr Cameron is defending continued membership of the EU as problems within the eurozone deepen.

The vote will also place the Liberal Democrats in an awkward position, after their pledge in the election to hold such a referendum.

Although approval of the motion would not be binding, it would put intense pressure on Mr Cameron to respect the will of the Commons and seek the public’s verdict. The Prime Minister, who has expressed his desire to take back some powers from Brussels, is publicly opposed to such a referendum.

Pulling out was “the wrong answer for Britain” he told increasingly vocal eurosceptic Tories at the party’s autumn conference in Manchester this month.

“What most people want in this country is not actually to leave the EU, but to reform the EU and make sure that the balance of powers between a country like Britain and Europe is better,” Mr Cameron said.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/cam...ks_over_referendum_on_staying_in_eu_1_1917405

"Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations. No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum." - David Cameron, September 2007.

 

[Mickie]

im finding it hard to see why we're in it, i can see why we joined, but whats the point in staying in it. i'd love to add more, but its too late

 

[PsychoPigeon]

Cameron went to school with the Rothschilds. I wouldn't expect any reasonable policies which are in the peoples interest from this man.

 

[A2Z]

After reading this thread, I did some searching and have been doing some reading on Croatia joining the EU in July 2013 it looks like. Being from Croatia, but living here in the UK nearly all my life, I definately think its a good idea we join it. Main reason personally is that it means I can find a job in other countries in Europe....as the UK has just gone downhill... even though im eligible for a UK passport, im not paying £1000 to get one!

But anyway apart from my own personal reason, from what I understand is the main benefit of being in the EU is the free trade - I wonder if the UK did pull out of the EU, what kind of extra import/export charges would there be?

 

[Freakbro]

Why do back benchers bother with this sort of crusade? They know Dave isn't going to go for it and it must surely just make him think they're lady parts?

So, just as I asked it seems this has arisen because of the epetition web site and not just because of unruly backbenchers, though I expect they are extremely pleased it has come up.

What is more depressing then is they talk about directly engaging the public in politics, set up this conduit and then when it comes down to it, will just ignore serious requests anyway.

 

[Wolfe777]

Any union that lets Romanians, Bulgarians, etc have as much right to claim benefits in the UK as our own citizens is a massive threat to all of our futures.

Not to mention those countries also have immigrant allocations from the Third World meaning those new immigrants will also have the right to claim benefits here.

Considering the history of Europe, the idea that we could all become one single union is preposterous, but the Germans and French pushed it through - both of whom are finally realizing the absolute folly of doing so.

Our only salvation is that we didn't join the Euro, because as we're currently witnessing; the less productive Southern nations are in genuine danger of ruining the economy of the more productive Northern states.

.

 

[Wolfe777]

After reading this thread, I did some searching and have been doing some reading on Croatia joining the EU in July 2013 it looks like. Being from Croatia, but living here in the UK nearly all my life, I definately think its a good idea we join it. Main reason personally is that it means I can find a job in other countries in Europe....as the UK has just gone downhill... even though im eligible for a UK passport, im not paying £1000 to get one!

But anyway apart from my own personal reason, from what I understand is the main benefit of being in the EU is the free trade - I wonder if the UK did pull out of the EU, what kind of extra import/export charges would there be?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who found your post ironic.

I mean no offense but one of the main reasons for the 'UK has just gone downhill' is that we've endured a massive amount of unneeded immigration as a direct result of allowing weaker economies into the EU that flooded Britain with unskilled workers willing to take a lower wage or simply to claim benefits here.

I'm not accusing you of that - far from it - but you seem to have quite the mercenary attitude towards the country in which you live. The £1000 for a passport that you refuse to pay for seems a very small price to me to have received a living in our country - whether you've worked here or not.

To be honest the whole 'I'll go wherever I can get the most out of' attitude is one of the main reasons the EU is failing.

One thing I can guarantee is that if Croatia does join the EU, Britain will be absolutely flooded with Croats - most of whom will want to work, but many of whom will be benefit spongers looking to leech off the British taxpayer.


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[[TW]Fox]

They can't just turn up and claim benefits though, who said they could, the Daily mail?

 

[platypus]

I did trust Gordon Brown, as it happens. Not that I've ever voted Labour, or was a fan of everything he did (well, I disagree with a fair bit!). But you're asking about trust, and I did/do think he tried his hardest, was a very clever bloke and was trustworthy. I know it's possible to say x, y and z promised a, b and c... but look, they lied. I can forgive things like that, though.

You did? But with hindsight you realise you were mistaken? Or something else?

A clever bloke? Despite all his failings?

I can find a job in other countries in Europe....as the UK has just gone downhill... even though im eligible for a UK passport, im not paying £1000 to get one!

If its so bad, then why are you still here?

And if £1,000 is too much to pay for a British passport, perhaps you don't deserve one.

 

[Wolfe777]

They can't just turn up and claim benefits though, who said they could, the Daily mail?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12633382


The nauseatingly liberal BBC good enough for you?

We already pay millions in child benefit for thousands of children not even residing in the UK. Hundreds of luxury homes are being built in Romania using money leeched from British taxpayers.

Our prisons are full of non British citizens, also been to London recently? It might as well not even be an English city any more.

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[semi-pro waster]

I don't think it is, we work on precident. The european judiciary can pretty much do as they please. It does not marry together well, especially when they interfere with one another.

Happily? I would suggest not.

We do work on precedent, there's no argument there. However we implement EU directives simply and easily in the UK, from memory we were (and quite possibly still are) much better at doing so than other states which superficially have a judicial system that is more compatible (Italy is one of the more obvious ones that springs to mind although you can argue about the general competence of the legal and political system there if you wish).

Which reasons, and in what context?

The EU is based primarily on civil law as I recall and those systems tend not to be as focused on precedent as common law systems such as the English legal system. It also expanded massively from the initial precepts that it was set up under (if someone else cares to fill in the timeline then that would be great as I can't remember it off the top of my head) so to be bound by rules that were probably appropriate during the initial stages would have almost entirely hamstrung it and prevented the EU from implementing achievements such as the ECHR - whether you largely agree with it or not it is a huge achievement and would not have been possible without the freedom to improvise. Essentially if it was to restrict itself only to precedent then it couldn't have become effective in the way that it currently is.

The UK can (and will) continue to be bound by precedent with occasional updates as it incorporates decisions from Europe so even if prima facie it isn't a good fit our legal system is easily practical enough to cope.

I doubt it in the current circumstances. Neither are implied threats of punative action for acting on democracy a rather positive case for remaining in the EU state.

Positive and pragmatic may or may not always be the same thing although until and unless it is tested then maybe it doesn't matter too much.

Our prisons are full of non British citizens, also been to London recently? It might as well not even be an English city any more.

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I have been to London recently, in fact I live here and I'd have said it was perfectly identifiable as an English city although with it being a capital city and one of the most popular tourist destinations in the World there are rather obviously lots of non-English people here. Then again although British I wouldn't count myself as English so maybe I'm part of the problem.

 

[[TW]Fox]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12633382


The nauseatingly liberal BBC good enough for you?

We already pay millions in child benefit for thousands of children not even residing in the UK. Hundreds of luxury homes are being built in Romania using money leeched from British taxpayers.

Our prisons are full of non British citizens, also been to London recently? It might as well not even be an English city any more.

.

Thanks for the link, proves me right. You can't just turn up and claim benefits.

 

[cheets64]

Thanks for the link, proves me right. You can't just turn up and claim benefits.

But they can eventually, sorry but they should never be allowed to claim benefits or only what they have put into the system from working, they end up having kids here, using the NHS and forcing kids into English schools. Look at Tower Hamlets, every single town will be like that if this vermin has the chance.

You are only like this because it doesn't effect you and you live in a nice cushy area full of liberals.

 

[mmj_uk]

Nothing scares me more than the idea of a decision as complex as this being in the hands of the British public.

Most politicians in government aren't exactly geniuses you know, half of them will just vote for what they're told to (or payed to by lobbyists) and they certainly don't live in the real world.

The only people most politicians represent is themselves financially.

 

[jas72]

Re-distribution of wealth rarely works. It is socialist in the sense it would seem to want longterm economic and social parity, to then act as one unified block.



The EU is a burden to this process, it is an increasingly expensive and bureaucratic overhead and many of it's practices in effect end up being anti-business. EU divective after another stiffles business. We can't group countries together for political and milatary purposes, and expect economic parity especially while making the process rather more tedious and labourious. Transport infrastructure in sections of Europe and beyond are probably better than ours, convergence of standards for example does not require a growing sovereign parliament either.

The East isn't a basket case, sections of it are doing better than us in certain terms. Competition, not subsidies will improve the position of others. Greece takes bailout after bailout and cannot reform, yet we keep throwing at it in some perverse case of vanity. This is not improvement, this is trying to save a political dream. These instances are the dangers of a runaway EU state.

Without standards you limit the chance for the market to expand (trying to manufacture to 27 different EU standards = less market choice and less competition which is always bad for the consumer.) Again it's the national bodies who decide which standards should be set both national standards agencies, regional bodies and even trade guilds are consulted extensively before such standards are implemented the EU doesn't simply wake up one morning and decide to change some standards. People concerned have their say if they choose not to speak then that too is up to them.

 

[pingwing]

There are so many benefits to the UK to be in the EU but everyone is held up on one thing, "loss of UK sovereignty", well wake up, this isn't the 1800s any more and the UK can not compete on it's own

Have an internet hug for getting the most important points across

Sovereignty won't prop up the economy, feed the population or really do anything of note (especially given its lack of definability).

Im glad the UK can not physically leave the EU as we'll end up in the biggest economic mess imaginable. The only way the economy can recover is by supporting our close neighbours (most of the UK's trade is with Europe and most of Irelands trade is through the UK) so ensuring they prosper ensures we do too. "Good capitalists make sure they have good capitalist neighbours" is roughly the quote.


And for everyone who wants to define the British identity and tell people they rant being British, a fun irony for you is that doing this is not being British @_@

 

[Tummy]

I'm pleased that things like this are decided and debated by people with knowledge and a good education in the subject, not the British public.

I personally wouldn't want to leave the EU, it has far too many positives for the Country and the negative effect would be huge.

 

[anything I don't mind]

EU COLLAPSE IMMINENT - Preparing for Euro Breakup - conference with MEPs Farage, Bloom and Professors W. Hankel, P. Bagus