Occupy London! Here we go again!

[RDM]

Yet where are they when there's some actual crime going on like the London riots? Nowhere to be seen.

Which is pretty much the point. You will damn them regardless.

 

[stockhausen]

The Police apparently flew over the tents last night with a thermal imaging camera. It appears that all bar 20% of these idiots are going home at night at the tents were all empty.

At what time was this imaging done?
Did the Police notice ant 'to-ing and fro-ing' between tents?
Did the Police have a helicopter hovering over the tents all night? If so, no wonder people chose to sleep somewhere quieter.

I suspect that this particular fairy tale will have come from the Daily Mail's man propping up the bar in 'The Trotter & Truncheon'

 

[TwsT]

This thread is hilarious. Would read again it's like being in a pub listening to random people only no one has the excuse of being drunk for the outlandish statements!

 

[scorza]

The Police apparently flew over the tents last night with a thermal imaging camera. It appears that all bar 20% of these idiots are going home at night at the tents were all empty.

Why were the police flying over the tents with thermal imaging cameras? Why did they release the footage to the media? Surely the police aren't being used to gather material to undermine the protests as that would mean they were a political tool.

Though it's perhaps not the most hardcore of protests, it sounds very reasonable to me to commute to the protest rather than spend an October night on London's streets.

 

[Cosimo]

The Police apparently flew over the tents last night with a thermal imaging camera. It appears that all bar 20% of these idiots are going home at night at the tents were all empty.

So much for the "“All day, all week, we’ll sleep on London’s freezing streets” posters. Only one thing to do now, clear the scum tents at night if they're empty.

 

[Robbo]

So much for the "“All day, all week, we’ll sleep on London’s freezing streets” posters. Only one thing to do now, clear the scum tents at night if they're empty.

Bahahahaha! That is hilarious. What a load of absolute morons.

 

[elmarko]

Just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean we should adopt a system which is logically impossible. You will never get 100% of society to co-operate in the manner required for pure communism to work. It just cannot happen - this very thread and the people disagreeing in it is proof of that!

There are numerous people who are happy with the current situation. They go to work, they earn money, spend some of it to live and enjoy spending the rest. Many own and run businesses and enjoy that, as well. Just because the jobless whingers are unhappy (Can't they see that if they channeled the effort they put into railing against the system into something else they'd probably be earning money?) doesn't mean most people are.

Please explain how it's logically impossible.

Human behaviour is predictable & therefore controllable.

Spend some time studying behaviourism & you will understand that trying to say people would be unable to adapt to a different method of governance because it's different to the current is a flawed argument.

All a society needs to do is reward different value systems & those will develop, the problem is in capitalism greed/corruption & unenlightened self interest are currently rewarded - it should be no surprise the world is in such a mess.

Do you think people from traditional agricultural/tribal societies would think they could adapt to modern western lifestyles?.

Also, those of you saying "It's nature!" - how exactly is debt based monetary exchange natural?, please direct me to the monkey bank, or the dolphin financial institutions.

What's natural is wearing animal skins & living in cages, but we have progressed from that (most of us).

Our entire evolution was based on our ability to mutually co-operate, empathy exists because it serves a clear & measurable purpose.

 

[stockhausen]

I'm so glad to see that the Police have learned from recent experience following the Jean Charles de Menezes, Ian Tomlinson and 'phone hacking cover-ups and are now much more willing to release evidence to the media

 

[ShaolinDreams]

Doesn't it boil down to greed and equality. Some would rather wealth was shared while some just want to have more than everyone else. I would happily accept less luxuries so that it would benefit everyone in my society. I don't understand this attitude lets not change anything because greed is a human trait so we should continue down this route as maybe the greedy don't want to change just yet. Killing is a negative human trait but they are punished why is greed acceptable? I understand if one man works harder at a particular job he would want more for it, but shouldn't he be happier if everyone was treated equally, that there was no poverty, a reduction in crime and free education and health for all? No he was wants his dues sod everyone else, kill or be killed. So I was in a dilemma whether democratic capitalism or pure communism are the right systems to employ, i came to the conclusion of a middle ground, Democratic Communism. I'm not very knowledgeable about politics and such so could someone give me some examples why Democratic Communism would fail in principle? And please no using USSR as a reference, Star Trek is acceptable though

 

[Nexus]

No I'm looking at an actual picture of the protest. That's the police's decision to barricade the main entrance - don't blame the protesters for that. I can't see any reason why that police action is necessary, the protest has been peaceful so far.

Have you really forgotten that just two months ago our Capital was plunged into chaos by the riots. It's also not quite a year ago since another peaceful protest was hijacked and many London landmarks were damaged and disgraced.

St. Paul's is one of the most historical buildings in the country, if they weren't shown to be protecting it, there would be an outrage.

 

[D.P.]

Please explain how it's logically impossible.

Human behaviour is predictable & therefore controllable.

Spend some time studying behaviourism & you will understand that trying to say people would be unable to adapt to a different method of governance because it's different to the current is a flawed argument.

All a society needs to do is reward different value systems & those will develop, the problem is in capitalism greed/corruption & unenlightened self interest are currently rewarded - it should be no surprise the world is in such a mess.

Do you think people from traditional agricultural/tribal societies would think they could adapt to modern western lifestyles?.

Also, those of you saying "It's nature!" - how exactly is debt based monetary exchange natural?, please direct me to the monkey bank, or the dolphin financial institutions.

What's natural is wearing animal skins & living in cages, but we have progressed from that (most of us).

Our entire evolution was based on our ability to mutually co-operate, empathy exists because it serves a clear & measurable purpose.

"Please explain how it's logically impossible.

Human behaviour is predictable & therefore controllable."

I will stop you right there. Think about this absurdity you just wrote.

 

[stockhausen]

Have you really forgotten that just two months ago our Capital was plunged into chaos by the riots. It's also not quite a year ago since another peaceful protest was hijacked and many London landmarks were damaged and disgraced. ...

I'm not convinced that the riots in London, Birmingham and elsewhere are typical and I suspect that they had far more to do with people's desire to loot electrical retailers, etc. than anything else.

I do agree that there is always a danger that any protest will be hijacked by anarchists - as seemed to be the case at Dale Farm. There are people who will jump on any available bandwagon that will help to make their case for opposing authority. Added to this, it now transpires that the Police have for some years used Agents Provocateur to justify action against protest movements.

However, I suspect that regardless of whether or not there is any trouble, the Police must be facing considerable political pressure to get these people away from the public gaze.

 

[elmarko]

Doesn't it boil down to greed and equality. Some would rather wealth was shared while some just want to have more than everyone else. I would happily accept less luxuries so that it would benefit everyone in my society. I don't understand this attitude lets not change anything because greed is a human trait so we should continue down this route as maybe the greedy don't want to change just yet. Killing is a negative human trait but they are punished why is greed acceptable? I understand if one man works harder at a particular job he would want more for it, but shouldn't he be happier if everyone was treated equally, that there was no poverty, a reduction in crime and free education and health for all? No he was wants his dues sod everyone else, kill or be killed. So I was in a dilemma whether democratic capitalism or pure communism are the right systems to employ, i came to the conclusion of a middle ground, Democratic Communism. I'm not very knowledgeable about politics and such so could someone give me some examples why Democratic Communism would fail in principle? And please no using USSR as a reference, Star Trek is acceptable though

I agree with everything here pretty much.

Equality is mutually beneficial.

I'd rather aim to live in a "star trek style" future as opposed to the war torn & poverty ridden dystopia others seem intent on heading into.

I don't know about you, but I don't want homeless people on the streets, children starving to death or 70% of the worlds population living in & out of bins.

Hardly radical.

 

[elmarko]

"Please explain how it's logically impossible.

Human behaviour is predictable & therefore controllable."

I will stop you right there. Think about this absurdity you just wrote.

It's not absurd.

What was absurd was you saying that these different methods of government were logically impossible (with no evidence or logic to back it up).

Simply saying something is logically impossible does not make it so.

I then said.

"Human behaviour is predictable & therefore controllable" - this is one of the core parts of behaviourism, knowing that theoretically we could create any kind society we wanted, if we used the correct stimulus & reward mechanisms.

Now please explain the absurdity in more detail.

 

[Radiation]

Some of us want to live in a better world, there are better ways you know.

 

[scorza]

Is Occupy London a part-time protest?

Yesterday's news report that 90% of the tents lie empty at night seemed to exacerbate these prejudices. The protesters aren't just lazy, the rightwing press argued: they're too lazy to even stay there. "It's incredible," said Matthew Richardson, a Corporation of London councillor who blew the whistle on the supposedly vacant tents. "It just shows most of the demonstrators don't have the courage of their convictions and are just here to make trouble."

First, then, some myth-busting. I camped at the occupation last week. The idea that occupiers only use one in 10 tents is laughable. I couldn't put an exact number on it, but I reckon that the nights I was down there, more than three quarters were full. The camp operates a sign in/sign out procedure to keep track of vacant tents. What's more, I can't find anyone who will independently confirm where this 90% figure came from. Cllr Richardson says it was determined by police thermal imaging. But a spokesman for the Corporation of London police said he couldn't comment on operational procedure, and that the statistic hadn't come from the police. In fact, the only person who has spoken about it is Cllr Richardson himself, who later told the Guardian he hadn't heard it from official sources. The Daily Telegraph claimed their own thermal imagists had verified the rumour. Yet their video was not only shot at 12:30am (an hour before most occupiers tend to hit the sack): it also shows three separate protesters evaporating from sight when standing behind their tents – casting doubt on the accuracy of thermal imaging technology in the first place.

 

[Cosimo]

Some of us want to live in a better world, there are better ways you know.

Well they could start making it a better world by getting rid of the tent city outside St Pauls for a start.

 

[Dolph]

Please explain how it's logically impossible.

Human behaviour is predictable & therefore controllable.

Spend some time studying behaviourism & you will understand that trying to say people would be unable to adapt to a different method of governance because it's different to the current is a flawed argument.

All a society needs to do is reward different value systems & those will develop, the problem is in capitalism greed/corruption & unenlightened self interest are currently rewarded - it should be no surprise the world is in such a mess.

Do you think people from traditional agricultural/tribal societies would think they could adapt to modern western lifestyles?.

Also, those of you saying "It's nature!" - how exactly is debt based monetary exchange natural?, please direct me to the monkey bank, or the dolphin financial institutions.

What's natural is wearing animal skins & living in cages, but we have progressed from that (most of us).

Our entire evolution was based on our ability to mutually co-operate, empathy exists because it serves a clear & measurable purpose.

The fact that human behaviour is predictable is exactly why communism doesn't work and always turns into some form of authoritarian hell...

 

[Dolph]

Is Occupy London a part-time protest?

What a great debunk, ask someone at the protest 'are you wasting our time'... cos that will always give a good answer.

Can we have some independent analysis of the claim, rather than asking the protestors themselves and claiming whatever they say as truth without verification?

 

[Biohazard]

What a great debunk, ask someone at the protest 'are you wasting our time'... cos that will always give a good answer.

Can we have some independent analysis of the claim, rather than asking the protestors themselves and claiming whatever they say as truth without verification?

Where would you suggest to look for such independent analysis?

Could be an OcUK field trip assignment.