Scotlands Drink Culture

[Biohazard]

I appreciate it isn't being hailed as a solve-all solution, but the impact will likely be so negligible that it feels like a very naive attempt to sort out our alcohol issues. If people really want to drink then they will, regardless of the cost. This measure is meant to be the SNP standing up to and tackling Scotland's alcohol problems - to me it doesn't feel like that at all.

What would you rather see in its place?

It's a weak proposal that will do nothing to alter the way we approach drinking. Admittedly I'm not sure what the best way to go about changing our drinking habits is, but this certainly isn't it. Is it even worthwhile? Probably not.

In which way is the proposal weak?

Just let people continue on regardless then, aye?

 

[Andy]

Can i brew my own to avoid this stealth tax?

Will mouthwash be included in the pricehike?

 

[233]

it will make absolutely no difference other than increase profits for the places selling the booze.

people will still drink just as much unless they make it a ridiculous price per unit, which they wont do as the government are too spineless to go far enough with this

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

This thread will turn into the almost daily Scotland vs England forum nonsense. Calling it now.

 

[bhavv]

And consume less alcohol as a result. No one has tried to stop anyone from drinking here you might want to note.

Actually, people consumed much less alcohol on the all you can drink nights because of how much busier the bars were with massive queues. They simply couldnt buy as many drinks as they could on normal nights, so the price really didnt have an effect on this.

Also if bar prices did increase too much, all they would do is drink more supermarket booze before going out.

I actually used to carry around vodka spiked bottles of pop drinks and drink them outside prior to entry to wherever we were going. A couple of my friends kept small bottles of whisky in their pockets, southern comfort and JD being the most popular student 'get drunk fast' drinks.

 

[Biohazard]

it will make absolutely no difference other than increase profits for the places selling the booze.

Which is why you take it off them in tax.

people will still drink just as much unless they make it a ridiculous price per unit, which they wont do as the government are too spineless to go far enough with this

90p a unit has been suggested by some experts, wait and see on that.

 

[franco_22]

Actually, people consumed much less alcohol on the all you can drink nights because of how much busier the bars were with massive queues. They simply couldnt buy as many drinks as they could on normal nights, so the price really didnt have an effect on this.

Also if bar prices did increase too much, all they would do is drink more supermarket booze before going out.

I actually used to carry around vodka spiked bottles of pop drinks and drink them outside prior to entry to wherever we were going. A couple of my friends kept small bottles of whisky in their pockets, southern comfort and JD being the most popular student 'get drunk fast' drinks.

Classy...

 

[bhavv]

Expensive alcohol wont work anymore than expensive cigarettes dont.

Classy...

No, its called 'student'.

Students and class do not go together.

 

[franco_22]

Expensive alcohol doesn't stop people drinking. It's expensive here, but people get absolutely, completely and utterly, ruined (more than the UK). Similar levels of predrinking to the UK, though.

That's just because no one can drink as much as the English, Scottish and Irish

 

[Castiel]

Is it not a UK wide Drink Culture though?

 

[Biohazard]

Actually, people consumed much less alcohol on the all you can drink nights because of how much busier the bars were with massive queues. They simply couldnt buy as many drinks as they could on normal nights, so the price really didnt have an effect on this.

This bill isn't particularly aimed at establishments either but more wholesale and retail outlets.

The recession is also helping drive down consumption, which in effect proves increasing the cost would have similar effect/

 

[Biohazard]

Is it not a UK wide Drink Culture though?

Yes, but some areas are admittedly worse than others.

 

[Sonea Fifer]

The problem with minimum alcohol pricing is that there's absolutely zero evidence it achieves anything and fails to tackle the cause of the problem...

That's not quite true - the hardcore I'm sure will still manage to find some way around this and still manage to get drunk. Which brings me to my next question: Who gains financially from this increase? I'm guessing it isn't the shopkeeper/bar owner but our government?

Nope. Drinking is cool and makes you awesome and socially accepted.

Absolute utter rubbish!

Due to that, everyone does it. If you dont drink then people think youre an antisocial lightweight pansy, and your chances of a successful social life become extremely low.

No they don't - I've a few friends who are completely tea total and are quite happy to join us down the pub and consume non alcoholic beverages, I'm sure there's probably people on this forum who are the same. My self, I've not touched any alcohol for some months now due to medication but I'm no antisocial lightweight - l still have a social life.

It's weird given the perception but I knew very few people in Scotland who drink Buckfast, occasionally they'll pick it up as a bit of a knowingly self-deprecating manner "look I'm a typical Scotsman getting drunk on Buckfast" style but most wouldn't touch it in the normal run of things.

I can honestly say I've never tried Buckfast - doesn't appeal to me to be honest as I'd much rather have a nice malt.

I've started reading the claimed benefits to the bill on that BBC page and already I disbelieve it, it's far too exact to say there'll be 50 less deaths in the first year, 1,200 fewer hospital admissions etc.

Which was pretty much par for the course lets be honest - I'm getting the opinion of this is one of those situations where by:

• Bill doesn't pass Parliament = Stick it through again until it does.
  
• We need some statistical information to make our case just = Just make it up!

As for what the solution to the drinking culture is (starting from the premise that it needs solved), I'd think education is probably the best long term way to sort it. It's something that has taken decades, if not centuries to come to be so it's equally not something that is likely to be removed just by upping the prices of a unit of alcohol - it may help but it's not addressing the root causes.

Education as you say may well help but it would seem to me that this now well and truly inbred into our culture - increasing the price does nothing more than upset the majority that are quite happy to experience the occasional tipple and stay well within limits and fill the pockets of those that don't really require it!

Err, you've just made that up or got it all horribly wrong.

What you meant to say was "Rejected by everyone except for the SNP MSP Group".

That's a fair point - I'll stand by your correction

 

[bhavv]

But minimum prices per unit would but Lambrini out of business!

No one will buy their cheapo urine tasting booze anymore because it costs the same as nicer stuff.

Absolute utter rubbish!

It isnt. Everything I have said in this thread is the absolute truth regarding drinking culture among students and young adults in the UK.

No they don't - I've a few friends who are completely tea total and are quite happy to join us down the pub and consume non alcoholic beverages, I'm sure there's probably people on this forum who are the same. My self, I've not touched any alcohol for some months now due to medication but I'm no antisocial lightweight - l still have a social life.

I wasnt talking about you, your friends or anyone on this forum, I was purposefully mocking student and drinking culture. You wouldnt be able to enjoy a student social life without drinking. No one could. You need the alcohol to make it bearable due to how crap it is.

 

[semi-pro waster]

And if you can't quantify the effect of legislation isn't it open to similar contentions on the flip side? "A policy no one can measure"?

It isn't just alcohol that is equated to hospital admissions and deaths etc. Governments generally work statistically and not on guess work.

I'm sure the policy would be open to claims that it's something you can't measure but here's the thing, I'm perfectly happy with that as I don't mind that some things can't be quantified - it's trying to impute a level of precision that doesn't belong.

How would think that education should be formed or structured?

It will not solve the problem alone I'm not sure where this repeated comment comes from; it will make inroads however and also release pressure on the externalities. Ie Taxpayers paying for other peoples selfishness and lack of control.

I don't think I said it a) wouldn't help and b) was invoked as a panacea. I did say that it wasn't addressing the root causes and I think that's perfectly true, the drinking culture in the UK as a whole isn't something that has occurred overnight and as we've seen with the ever-increasing cigarette prices that doesn't discourage lots of people from indulging.

As for how to structure the education, I don't know but I'd suggest it starts with parents trying to encourage a bit of a sensible attitude to drinking. Difficult when a number will doubtless not have a sensible attitude themselves but I'd strongly suspect that it needs to be addressed from multiple angles so schools may need to take a bigger role in educating people about the dangers of excessive drinking and so on. My point is fairly simple, picking one thing to target is unlikely to do it by itself and right now it's also going to "punish" those who are responsible drinkers.

 

[bhavv]

The main problem is that adults who drink pass the drinking culture onto their kids. Lots of people I knew began drinking at their family dinners from their early teens because the parents encouraged drinking.

 

[Biohazard]

"The Welsh Government welcomes this news and would like to see a minimum price per unit of alcohol also introduced in Wales. While we believe that the case for the introduction of a minimum price remains strong, the power to introduce such measures in Wales currently lie with the UK Government.
"We requested power to legislate on alcohol licensing but this was rejected by the UK Government. This would have enabled us to take action to introduce our own controls on licensing to tackle the availability of alcohol."

Carl Sargeant, Welsh Local Government and Communities Minister.

"Like Scotland, Northern Ireland has a significant problem with our drinking culture. Research commissioned by my Department estimated that social cost of alcohol misuse at up to £900 million each year in Northern Ireland, and the cost to Health and Social Services alone could be up to £250 million. While these figures are significant, they fail to bring home the impact that alcohol misuse has on individuals, children, families and communities right across our society.
"I believe that the evidence is clear, accessibility and affordability have an impact on the level of alcohol misuse. In particular I am concerned by the way alcohol is sold in some of our supermarkets. Given the nature of alcohol - the harms it can cause mean it isn't just another product like bread or milk - I believe that this is irresponsible. Therefore, Northern Ireland is closely examining the potential impact of introducing a minimum unit price for alcohol, and we will continue to watch progress on this issue in Scotland very closely."

Edwin Poots, Northern Ireland Health Minister

"Increasingly people are recognising the harm alcohol is doing in society. We need to do much more to address the availability of alcohol. Charging a minimum price will make very cheap alcohol less attractive. This legislation will have a significant positive impact on the health of Scots."

Scotland 's Chief Medical Officer, Dr Harry Burns

"I am pleased that the Scottish Government has reintroduced the minimum pricing bill. The NHS is buckling under the pressure of having to pick up the pieces of Scotland's drinking culture which has largely been driven by cheap, strong alcohol."

Dr Brian Keighley, Chairman of the BMA in Scotland

"We welcome the introduction of this Bill today. Minimum unit pricing offers the best chance we have to stem the tide of alcohol harm in Scotland. The relationship between price, consumption and harm has been clearly demonstrated in research and there is no credible scientific body that doubts that the relationship exists. As well as being based on sound science, minimum pricing has the added advantage of specifically targeting the cheapest products which are often consumed by the most vulnerable in our society. The eyes of the world are on Scotland and we should be proud that our government has demonstrated leadership and introduced a policy that is so clearly in the public interest. We hope that our politicians unite in support of this Bill and show the people of Scotland that they have their best interests at heart."

Evelyn Gillan, Chief Executive Alcohol Focus Scotland

"We have consistently argued that the solution must be proportionate to the problem and should not penalise the majority of responsible drinkers. That is why we believe a minimum price for alcohol would go to the very heart of the problem."

Rooney Anand, Chief Executive, Greene King PLC

"Everyone likes a bargain, but the ubiquity of cheap alcohol in Scotland exacts a high price on our health and well-being. The cheaper alcohol has become, the more people have died or been hospitalised because of it. Minimum pricing will stop the sale of alcohol at prices that encourage risky and harmful drinking. It is not the only measure we can take to tackle high rates of alcohol harm, but all the evidence suggests that it will be one of the most effective."

Dr Bruce Ritson, Chair, Scottish Health Action on Alcohol Problems

"There is overwhelming evidence that cheap alcohol is linked to high levels of hazardous use and related harms. The Scottish Parliament should be applauded if they approve the Bill to introduce a minimum price on alcoholic drinks. This policy has been applied Canadian jurisdictions for many years. Recent research at the Centre for Addictions Research at the University of Victoria has found clear evidence that increases in minimum price significantly reduce consumption. This policy is an essential plank of any comprehensive plan to tackle alcohol-related problems."

Professor Tim Stockwell, director of the Centre for Addictions Research of British Columbia, University of Victoria, British Columbia, Canada.

"As strong advocates of responsible drinking, Tennent Caledonian agrees that it is appropriate for action to be taken to tackle the issue of alcohol misuse by a minority of problem drinkers in Scotland. We continue to take the view that, as part of a range of measures, alcohol minimum pricing has a role to play and look forward to seeing the detail of the Scottish Government's proposals in due course."

Steve Annand - Commercial MD, Tennent Caledonian

"Setting a minimum price on alcohol is one of a range of measures that will help improve Scotland's issues with alcohol and violence. As well as this whole population approach we also need more specific, targeted approaches, looking at those whose alcohol consumption is harmful not just to themselves but to their community."

Detective Chief Superintendent John Carnochan, Co-director of the Violence Reduction Unit

"The Scottish Licensed Trade Association fully supports The Scottish Governments minimum pricing initiative. Although not a panacea, it will be the major component of The Governments strategy to change our Country's uneasy relationship with alcohol. The link between price and consumption is obvious. Supermarkets have openly admitted to using alcohol as a loss leader in order to get people into their stores. The promotional activity they indulge in on a daily basis is very often irresponsible and encourages alcohol abuse. This results in serious social and health problems. Supermarkets and some others have shown that they have no respect for the current licensing law or its health and public order objectives. That's why Government intervention is necessary and why we applaud the Government for introducing this crucial piece of legislation."

Paul Waterson, Chief Executive, The Scottish Licensed Trade Association.

"The Scottish Police Service supports any proposals to set minimum retail pricing in relation to the sale of alcohol for consumption both on and off licensed premises. We consider that directly linking the strength of a product to its retail cost by establishing a minimum price for a unit of alcohol would positively assist in addressing the problems associated with reducing excess alcohol consumption and the subsequent alcohol-related harm and antisocial behaviour."

Assistant Chief Constable Andrew Barker, Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland

"With every health body in the UK now backing the move on alcohol minimum pricing, as well as significant numbers of publicans, some major retailers and alcohol producers, both the Scottish and Westminster governments need to accept the evidence and introduce a minimum price on alcohol urgently before thousands more lives are affected. As long as irresponsible retailers can continue to legally sell alcohol at very low cost, communities, families and thousands of individuals will continue to suffer."

Don Shenker, Chief Executive Alcohol Concern

"We know from calls that harmful drinking by a parent or carer can dominate family relationships and affect children's wellbeing in every aspect of their lives. Alcohol policy needs to implement measures that will protect children from harm. This includes minimum pricing which should be supported by other policies relating to support and education."

Elaine Chalmers, head of ChildLine Scotland

"Making alcohol less affordable is the most effective way of reducing alcohol-related harm. The current excise duty varies for different alcoholic products (for historical reasons and under EU legislation). This means that the duty does not always relate directly to the amount of alcohol in the product. In addition, an increase in the duty levied does not necessarily translate into a price increase as retailers or producers may absorb the cost. There is extensive international and national evidence (within the published literature and from economic analyses) to justify reviewing policies on pricing to reduce the affordability of alcohol."

NHS National Institute for Health & Clinical Excellence

" The British Liver Trust is heartened to see that Scotland is already moving towards the introduction of a minimum price per unit of alcohol."

Alison Rogers Chief Executive, British Liver Trust

"We need to continue to show that commitment and dedication to reducing the heavy toll that alcohol problems impose on Scotland. Minimum pricing and reduced discounting are ways of reducing alcohol consumption that do not require the approval of the Westminster Parliament. For the sake of the health and social wellbeing of the people in Scotland we encourage you to support these actions."

Scottish Directors of Public Health

"We welcome the Scottish Government's announcement of a proposed a minimum unit price. Over the past twenty years as alcohol has grown progressively more affordable the rates of chronic illness and acute injuries, and crime and disorder stemming from its misuse have soared. Setting a minimum price has the potential to rebalance these harmful trends and begin to engender a more healthy relationship with alcohol."

Professor Sir Iain Donaldson, Royal College of Physicians

"Molson Coors, as a global family brewer, remains confident that minimum price under the right circumstances can be a part of the solution to address the problems caused by exceptionally low prices which do not build our brands or respect for alcohol."

Mark Hunter, Chief Executive Molson Coors

"The majority of members of the Youth Commission on Alcohol are supportive of the introduction of minimum price per unit of alcohol."

Youth Commission on Alcohol

"I support the proposal to set a minimum alcohol sales price as a targeted measure to improve public health. I am aware of the extensive evidence which illustrates the strong link between reducing alcohol consumption as a means of reducing alcohol related harm. I believe that to ignore this evidence will have adverse effects on Scotland's children, their families and communities. I believe minimum pricing to be one of the most effective ways to reduce alcohol consumption by adults and an important step in minimising the abuse and neglect suffered by children and young people as a result of parents and carers' harmful drinking."

Tam Baillie, Scottish Commissioner for Children and Young People

So Dolph, do you really know better than all these experts and industry leaders?

I await with baited breath for your reply.

 

[nydryl]

In which way is the proposal weak?

Just let people continue on regardless then, aye?

It looks like a purely political proposal to show the SNP as a party that will stand up to Scotland's drinking problems. In theory I'm all for that, and at least they are making an issue of it, but I can't see this having any real impact. Fundamental changes in the way we approach drinking are needed. As I've already said I would have poverty, education, parenting, depression, lack of prospects and the fact that it makes you feel fantastic as reasons for drinking to excess. These are primarily socioeconomic issues and won't be solved by raising the price of a can by twenty pence. If I'm proven wrong ten or twenty years down the line I'll be happy to admit it.

 

[Macky]

I only see one way to fix this. Not that it needs fixing in the first place, people drink, and have done since..ever. Throw more money towards the government so they can help us and make our country a better place.

 

[Lima]

Taxing stuff doesn't ****ing stop people from doing it......its merely just another mechanism for the ****** greedy expenses cheating fat cats to take yet another cut of peoples hard earned cash.

Oh no....there's now a slight increase in the cost of me getting hammered and partying....might as well stop drinking pints of Heineken and move over to Fosters....and if that fails....then may as well move on to some sort of illegal narcotics, since it will be the only substance the government cant tax....although give it time

Congestion charge....a fine example of just pure greed off of that communist **** Ken Livingston.....People that 'need' to drive in London will continue to do so....so in charging a premium they aren't minimising congestion, they are merely earning off of it.....Occassionally the lower earners who drive in London will HAVE TO get the train to work....but then BANG...constant year on year inflation busting ticket pricing increases and then Mr hard working tax payer is yet again further out of pocket.

Rant over I guess lol.... stuff like this just really bugs me...