Dinosaurs are not real :(

All these Stats are for Americans, which is very different to the rest of the world. Secondly, you have to be very careful with the term scientist. I'm not sure why a poltical scientist has any great insight into the understanding of the universe.

When I first quoted the study early in the thread I did add the proviso that when comparing to Europe we would need to take the increased secularism in Europe into consideration.

As far as disciplines go, the study does differentiate between Natural and Social Scientists and the questions were put to members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science which is a reputable association which should not have any innate pro-religious stance amongst it's membership.

Another study makes much the same conclusions...

When asked their beliefs about God, nearly 34 percent of academic scientists answer “I do not believe in God” and about 30 percent answer “I do not know if there is a God and there is no way to find out,”....This means that over 60 percent of professors in these natural and social science disciplines describe themselves as either atheist or religiously agnostic.

we also have to be careful on how we frame the question and what definition and context we are putting on the question.

When asked “to what extent do you consider yourself a spiritual person?” about 66 percent of the natural scientists and about 69 percent of the social scientists describe themselves as spiritual. This means there is a population of scientists who say they have no religious affiliation but who do see spirituality as important. Indeed, about 39 percent of those without a current religious affiliation still consider themselves spiritual.

There is some truth to the perception that scientists and the academy are “godless.” Yet, to see the academy only from this monolithic view would overlook the significant numbers of scientists who do identify with some form of faith tradition (48 percent) as well as those who are interested in spirituality (about 68 percent). In addition, when we look at the religious backgrounds of scientists, the picture becomes more complicated. Scientists come disproportionately from irreligious backgrounds or backgrounds where a faith tradition was only nominally practised.

I would support the fact that Scientists are less likely to be religious and less likely to hold a belief in a particular definition of God, however that is some way from stating that Scientists are mostly Atheists or that as Bhavv keeps repeating that Intelligence leads to Atheism. Because the statistics simply do not hold those propositions to be true. I would (with some reservation) be more likely to agree with the statement that Increased Intelligence leads to Agnosticism.


As I said above, I know a lot of scientists and not one beleives in God to the ebst of my knowledge. Quite the contrary, they are mostly very outspoken against religion, the church, and beleifs in deities. While one might technically define them as agnostics because they all ccept thee is no proof eitherway, they have a strong understanding that there is no God. Just like you can't proove there is no flying pink elephants in space but can make the assumption that they don't exist but remain open to the infinitesimally small chance that theoreticaly they could because there is no definitive disproof.

This is interesting, because I too know a disproportionate amount of scientists (I live with two for a start) and when asked the question "Do you believe in God" invariably the answer is "By what definition" and rightly so.

If we look at your examples....If we define God as being the Flying Spaghetti Monster or A Pink Elephant in Space then we can determine a probable likelihood to some degree of certainty.....this is because the proposition has specific definitions as to what we are considering to be true....and as such the probability would lean toward an atheist position. On this I think we can agree.

However, if we defined God as being the Universe itself with, or even without, a sentience that we cannot currently determine then the probability is somewhat more difficult to ascertain...so the answer to the proposition would lean toward the agnostic position....we simply do not know.

This is the problem with trying to apply scientific methodology to an unfalsifiable proposition...so much depends on how that proposition is defined and how many assumptions can be made as to it's likelihood. This is why Science and by implication the professional opinion (as opposed to a personal opinion) of Scientists logically and rationally should follow an agnostic approach to the question "Is there a God".

This should be the default position until such time as a falsifiable definition of God can be universally applied.
 
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I dislike Christianity in general after my parents brought me up surrounded by it. I was given no choice, despite the fact that God apparently gives everyone a choice. There are even phrases that I have seen in the bible to do with "mentally regulating" children to make sure they don't stray from the religion. I'd say this is one of the main crimes that religions commit, forcing children into something that they wouldn't want to do if they knew any other way.

That, plus hundreds of inconsistencies in the bible (I'm sure people will claim that there aren't, but for their "proof" there is generally a huge jump in logic), leads me to disbelieve anything even remotely religious. I don't dislike religious people (unless they force it on their children), but there is nothing that would prove a religion to me.
 
Castiel you and millions, maybe billions of others are deluded and wasting your precious time on earth, I hope you all can realise this before its to late. Signed the Devil. :D

I don't believe in the Devil, no more than I believe in a God, so maybe you can enlighten us as to just what the devil you are babbling about.....
 
The surest sign that people either don't read or don't understand half of what Castiel posts is that they think he is a Christian.
 
The surest sign that people either don't read or don't understand half of what Castiel posts is that they think he is a Christian.

Quite.....it is not as if I am not perfectly clear on the subject. I even 'dumb down' a lot of what I say because most people wouldn't necessarily have come across a lot of the terminology and complex concepts found in theology, divinity and the study of comparative religion....and I don't want to bore everyone to death either...

Sometimes I think they simply don't want to accept that it doesn't require belief to have an objective opinion on religion.
 
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You have belief in the principle of random creation, rather than a creator. That's inherently faith.

I do? I didnt know that I did, and never said that I did.

You believe that there are no gods / deities yourself, and believe that they are nothing but 'imaginary friends', yet you claim that this is not a faith based belief for you, but it is for others.

I dont get your reasons behind this.

The surest sign that people either don't read or don't understand half of what Castiel posts is that they think he is a Christian.

Actually, my google fu has now led me to believe that Castiel is merely a 'militant agnostic', or a 'negative atheist'.
 
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Actually, my google fu has now led me to believe that Castiel is merely a 'militant agnostic', or a 'negative atheist'.

Militant Agnostic is a humourous term, not one to be taken seriously as a philosophical position! Strong Agnosticism or Positive Agnosticism woukd be the relative philosophical positions...The general term Negative or Weak Atheism can be regarded depending on definition as Agnosticism anyway.

What I am specifically if you need a specific label is a Theological noncognitivist, so stretch that google fu finger of yours and learn something new.....:)
 
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Actually negative Atheism fits you perfectly:

Negative atheism refers to any other type of non-theism, wherein a person does not believe in the existence of any deity, but without asserting there to be none

This is 100% what you believe.

I cant accept that you are either 'ignostic', nor a 'Theological noncognitivist', because not once do you ever ask for a definition of 'god' before jumping into these debates.

Militant Agnostic is a humourous term, not one to be taken seriously as a philosophical position!

Indeed, yet it fits you like a glove fits a hand.
 
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Actually negative Atheism fits you perfectly:



This is 100% what you believe.

I cant accept that you are either 'ignostic', nor a 'Theological noncognitivist', because not once do you ever ask for a definition of 'god' before jumping into these debates.

Indeed, yet it fits you like a glove fits a hand.


That is because the definition is generally specified by the religion under discussion or more precisely it is defined to a certain extent by the discussion itself...in any number of debates I have questioned the validity of expressing a positive or negative based on a undefined, unfalsifiable concept of God...in fact I discussed it only a few posts ago.....

I have always maintained that before you can determine whether God exists or not, you must first present a coherent and falsifiable definition of God that is universally accepted. I have stated this on numerous occassions and remains my personal position at this moment in time.

You presume too much in deciding what I believe or what position I hold personally and it doesn't make any difference what you can except as you have no authority over my opinion.
 
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I am not presuming too much, if you held a truly Ignostic belief, there would be no motivation for you to get drawn into debates about god(s) / religion, especially without ever once asking for a definition of god.

If you specify a definition for whichever 'god' is being debated, then all your arguments lose their credibility as supporting the Ignostic ideology, because you are claiming that the term god can be universally defined.

You are most definitely a negative Atheist, these are the viewpoints that you believe:

A) You do not believe in any gods or deities
B) You do not assert that there are no gods or deities.
 
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I am not presuming too much, if you held a truly Ignostic belief, there would be no motivation for you to get drawn into debates about god(s) / religion, especially without ever once asking for a definition of god.

See that is only if I did not have a very specific and profession interest in comparative religion and theology.

And being an ignostic doesn't mean you are not motivated to discuss theological positions or the concept of divinity, it simply means that you hold the personal view that the existence of a God cannot be ascertained until there is a coherent and falsifiable definition put forward.

While ignosticism can be compated to agnosticism, the difference is that while agnostics and atheists accept that the concept Of God has a specific meaning, I do not and I have repeatedly made that clear.

If you review what I have stated in threads that ask that specifc question "does God exist" I have maintained that from a personal standpoint the definition of what is meant by God is paramount to my being able to answer the question from a personal and not, as I often do, an academic perspective.

You are merely confusing the two or not fully understanding either the terminology or the contextual position from which I am debating.
 
But you still clearly fall into the definition of a negative atheist, as much as you dont want to be.

You dont believe in god(s), but you do not state that god(s) cannot exist.

Also, I dont agree that either atheists, or agnostics accept a specific definition for the concept of god, they just do not believe any of the concepts that have been presented to them so far.
 
You are most definitely a negative Atheist, these are the viewpoints that you believe:

A) You do not believe in any gods or deities
B) You do not assert that there are no gods or deities.

Then you ask why I do not believe in those Gods and why I do not assert that there are no Gods....

And the answer is that the question is meaningless to me until you define what is meant by God. A theological noncognitivist position.
 
And the answer is that the question is meaningless to me until you define what is meant by God.

Easy enough to do.

You do not believe in any definition of god, or in any deities as described by any of the worlds religions, but you do not state that they absolutely cannot exist.

Negative atheism = you, positive atheism = me.
 
How is it not?

In the same way that not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

Atheism is not a faith because it does not require faith. I don't have faith in the existence of gods.

Nor do I have faith in the existence of undetectable magic pixies who are what actually make flight possibly by holding up birds, planes, etc with their magic to show off their strength to each other. Nor do I have faith in undetectable magic pixies who live in pockets and entangle earbud cables because it amuses them.

Do you have faith that those two types of undetectable magic pixies are real and that they are the true explanation for flight and entangled earbud cables?

If you don't have that faith, do you consider that lack of faith to be faith?
 
If you don't have that faith, do you consider that lack of faith to be faith?

Yes he pretty much does. This is what the argument that claims atheism to be a faith assumes, and it is the biggest load of fail ever stated regarding anything to do with religion, or lack of religion.

Yet an even bigger fail is atheists who do not even accept that they are atheists for whatever reason and come up with a load of other terms and definitions to try and describe themselves.

An agnostic would never claim that believing in gods / deities is the same thing as having imaginary friends (Gilly). This is 100% a positive atheist joke about gods and Dieties.

An Ignostic would never feel the need to get drawn into discussions about gods which he neither believes nor disbelieves (Castiel). In claiming that he definitely does not believe in any gods, he is basing this decision on some definition of 'god', which is not an ignostic belief but is pure atheism. In stating that he does not oppose that some definition of 'god' may possibly exist, this is negative atheism belief, because he has first and foremost claimed not to believe in any gods or deities, but cannot be agnosticism because he has already claimed that he defintiely does not believe in any gods / deities himself (an agnostic / ignostic would say 'I dont know', yet Castiel flat out accepts that he does not believe in any god, which is a 100% atheist position).

If you say or believe the following line:

'I do not believe in any gods or deities', then this makes you nothing other than an atheist, this is a pure and simple irrefutable fact.
 
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But you still clearly fall into the definition of a negative atheist, as much as you dont want to be.

You dont believe in god(s), but you do not state that god(s) cannot exist.

It doesn't matter whether you think I am a Weak Atheist anyway, as the philosophical position is compatible with Agnosticism and Theological noncognistism anyway....you simply do not understand the terminology or the differences between the various positions and how they relate to each other or that many of the overlapping terminology was created by various philospohers in an attempt to express their position in a way which encompasses more people and as such validates their position by varying greater degrees.

Also, I dont agree that either atheists, or agnostics accept a specific definition for the concept of god, they just do not believe any of the concepts that have been presented to them so far.

For the purpose of most of the discussion on this forum the definitions relate specifically to the Judeo-Christian tradition and a classical theist concept of God, which is Supreme creator who is omniscient, omnipotent and intervenes and takes interest in Humanity......so even though I personally hold an ignostic position, that doesn't mean I cannot discuss and debate from an academic perspective.

If you go back to threads that discuss God in a more undefined way, you will see that my position as an ignostic is clear.
 
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