Tories whose dads are well off.

I grew up in Harlow with my mum on benefits, having to use free school diner tickets and generally being very very poor.

I vote Conservative.

Just for ballance, I have a rather wealthy father. (very long sad story how I ended up growing up where and how I did)
 
We possess something which animals do not

We are animals.

, the ability to alter & control our environment - on a physical level & a values level.

I like share some values with conservatives, my main point of contention is the method - I also want to stop the never ending wave of "chav-scum" or the crime, violence, rape & child molestation that goes on in our society.

Just I appreciate that this kind of behaviour has a cause, which according to the current scientific view is mostly influenced by environment.

Sorry but I honestly don't understand your point above. You asked for evidence that we are selfish, so I said study any mammal on the planet and you'll see that evidence.

Humans are mammals and if your contention is that humans share absolutely nothing in common with other living beings in terms of instinct and survival then we'll have to disagree on that fundemental point.

Having the addition of reason doesn't override the fact we share a lot of behavioural traits with other animals.

I still have yet to see evidence that we are ultimately selfish - but even if we were, if society reward altruism, would it not be in the individuals best interests (and still selfish) to be altruistic?.

Have you read Richard Dawkin's book the 'Selfish Gene'? Whilst he is talking about a gene you can extrapolate the same basic theory to human in general. That being that our only real goal in life is to pass on our genes and do our utmost to ensure those genes are given the platform to reproduce later.

Please remember that I'm talking generally about humans here, of course there are specific cases of people not wanting kids.

Ultimately, living things will do more to promote their genes than ensure the survival of non-related ones. That can bee seen in pretty much all living things, most of which aren't being infleunced by a economic system (ergo so the argument our selfishness is caused by capitalism rather than the other way around is demonstrably false).

Funny you should mention this, empathy is something which has already developed significantly over time.

From the early ages of man it was considered to be at the "significant other level" - which included close family.

After our society evolved it moved onto "close social groups, friends extended family".

The next stage is tribal links - then nationhood, following onto religious identity, or even ethical values.

Look at the emotional reaction some have to the suffering of others on the other side of the globe (I'm emotionally blunted so not me personally) - but in some cases you have people doing extraordinary things to ease the suffering of our fellow human beings.

Humanity's empathy has evolved already & will/should continue to.

But there is a difference with empathy and sacrificing yourself for the good of the community. Empathy usually costs nothing for a start.

And whilst you could argue empathy is a key ingredient of a working communistic model, so would be the abolition of jealously and I'm unaware of any trends suggesting that emotion will go away any time soon.
 
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Going on this theory, then yes, basically the government should try to make sure you have a higher baseline of happiness. How the achieve that is kind of where the challenge comes in though.

I don't think it is truly achievable beyond ensuring base needs are met.

We are all complex creatures, and whilst I am just as happy staying home and watching a movie or playing games by myself as I am going out with my mates, one of my friends just cannot seem to keep herself entertaining, and as such craves social situations and gets proper grumpy if there isn't anyone free to do stuff with.

My baseline happiness is therefore easier to attain than hers, and not something the government can really influence.
 
Going on this theory, then yes, basically the government should try to make sure you have a higher baseline of happiness. How the achieve that is kind of where the challenge comes in though.

I came to a different conclusion, that attempting to change the baseline is futile because that's just what the chemical soup in your brain is set at.
 
Well yeah, it's kind of impossible, but if we could do it then that's really the only way to increase long term happiness...

Engineer a situation where all people always have food, shelter, worthwhile work and the opportunity to progress and the average happiness across the population would increase.
 
We are animals.
I never said we were not, when somebody say's animals they tend to mean "the other members of the animal kingdom", the term "cruelty to animals" is an example of when rational people can use the term appropriately without somebody quibbling.

I mistakenly assumed the same here.

Sorry but I honestly don't understand your point above. You asked for evidence that we are selfish, so I said study any mammal on the planet and you'll see that evidence.
The point about the above was that what applies for others animals does not apply to us, because we are capable of altering our environment - they are not, it's a pretty significant distinction.

Humans are mammals and if your contention is that humans share absolutely nothing in common with other living beings in terms of instinct and survival then we'll have to disagree on that fundemental point.
Typical straw man style argument, I never implied that we have absolutely nothing in common - just that with our additional abilities (for one, the ability to alter our environment) allows us to alter the development of future generations (for the better or worse).

Have you read Richard Dawkin's book the 'Selfish Gene'? Whilst he is talking about a gene you can extrapolate the same basic theory to human in general. That being that our only real goal in life is to pass on our genes and do our utmost to ensure those genes are given the platform to reproduce later.
I've got a number of Dawkin's books, I'd have thought if you were so familiar with evolution you would know that the passing of genes is what's important.

If being the "best altruist" allows you to do that, evolution would encourage just that, I agree that on a biological level our main motivation is to pass on our genetic codes to future generations - but any method would enable that.

All you need is to be rated higher against other men (from a male perspective), if that means being the "richest" in capitalism, or the most ethical in some "post-capitalist" society is irrelevant.

Plenty of people have attempted to use evolution to push a particular economic theory, but in reality which one is active is meaningless - just that the propensity to reproduce is increased if a certain behaviour type is present).

Ultimately, living things will do more to promote their genes than ensure the survival of non-related ones. That can bee seen in pretty much all living things, most of which aren't being infleunced by a economic system (ergo so the argument our selfishness is caused by capitalism rather than the other way around is demonstrably false).
That's assuming direct survival is linked into competition, which with our technology it isn't - I don't see people fighting to the death over a loaf of bread for a child in the UK, do you?.

The main thing deciding the passing on of genes is male/female preference of partner in the developed world.

But there is a difference with empathy and sacrificing yourself for the good of the community. Empathy usually costs nothing for a start.
Acting on empathy does have a cost, usually in materials/time or in some cases danger to life (pending on the situation).

Act's of self sacrifice are not that uncommon.

And whilst you could argue empathy is a key ingredient of a working communistic model, so would be the abolition of jealously and I'm unaware of any trends suggesting that emotion will go away any time soon.
Empathy has a key in the function of any society.

Think of it this way,

in society A - everybody is a capitalist 100% selfish, most of the population are malnourished & weak due to gross poverty.

In society B - They have a socialist form of capitalism & look after each other, the entire population is well fed & strong.

Society A & society B goto war - Who will win?.

While I admit the above situation is unlikely it's just to highlight that in evolution group mechanic needs to be taken into account, as sometimes helping the "other" can yield greater benefits to oneself (and increase the chance they can produce).

As social creatures it isn't that simple.

Engineer a situation where all people always have food, shelter, worthwhile work and the opportunity to progress and the average happiness across the population would increase.
This pretty much, as it would provide a greater level of equality of opportunity - increase social cohesion & reduce the amount of negative behaviour.
 
Why don't you be more even-handed and research whether there is any evidence that the economic and political situation of parents influences the voting behaviour of their children (I will save you some time, there is and it does.)

Applies just as much to ****less, whippet bothering, unionised, mine-avoiding lefties as it does to right minded powerhouses of the economy.
 
What would you rather have?

Poorest earning £15k pa with richest earning £1m pa
Poorest earning £5k pa with richest earning £100k pa

The rich/poor gap is much bigger in the first example but then in that everyone is richer.
But the rich would have vastly more spending power. The cost of living and property in London has been massively inflated by the presence of a large number of high-earners. The media loves slobbering on about the transformation of areas like Dalston and Brixton, but it ignores the unpleasant truth that single yuppies who can easily afford £1,000 a month in rent and £4.50 pints will drive out working class families who could never afford either. The wider public is better off without a small but substantial part of the population earning five or ten times the average household income.
 
But the rich would have vastly more spending power. The cost of living and property in London has been massively inflated by the presence of a large number of high-earners. The media loves slobbering on about the transformation of areas like Dalston and Brixton, but it ignores the unpleasant truth that single yuppies who can easily afford £1,000 a month in rent and £4.50 pints will drive out working class families who could never afford either. The wider public is better off without a small but substantial part of the population earning five or ten times the average household income.

It would be extremely bad business to charge £4.50 a pint that only the 1% could afford, when you could charge £3.50 and sell to 50%. There's no point a company making a huge mark up on a product if there aren't enough people to sustain the volume they'd need to stay in business. A small minority of high earners can't affect prices for mass consumer goods (You'd probably also find that as someone's wealth increases their likelihood to 'pay over the odds' decreases, it's not coincidence that the richest people I know are the tightest and the most likely to complain about the cost of a beer).

My understanding was that property prices and rents were being pushed up partly by the generous benefits system that dictates it will pay the rent of people no matter how much it costs. The landlords, knowing it is the government paying the rent can pretty much name their price knowing the state has a moral obligation to pay it.
 
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Just interested to see who is a tory, and if your dad/mum is well off or not. It's just to see if political ideology has anything to do with your financial situation as you are growing up. Thanks.

I think the majority of my wealthier friends are what I would describe as "champagne socialists". They live in big houses, send their kids to top public schools and vote Labour.
 
Engineer a situation where all people always have food, shelter, worthwhile work and the opportunity to progress and the average happiness across the population would increase.

Define 'worthwhile' work. There are loads of **** jobs that need to be done, and part of the problem is that many people don't believe it is worth them doing those jobs.

Who else is going to do them then? Immigrants? Nope, that leads to the current "Immigrants are stealing all the jobs I don't want to do, boohoo!" mindset many people have.
 
Define 'worthwhile' work. There are loads of **** jobs that need to be done, and part of the problem is that many people don't believe it is worth them doing those jobs.

Work which gives you a sense of worth, stacking shelves is a worthwhile job because it needs doing, sitting at a desk trying to entertain yourself for 9 hours because you're only there to make up the numbers, is not. ymmv

I do not refer to the financial reward being 'worth' getting out of bed for.
 
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