Soldato
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I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I think being dead is worse than being in this condition. So I would rather not be dead. Something is better than nothing.
tony nicklinson - 'locked-in syndrome'
- Thread starter cm1179
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Part of life is death.
Thus having a right to life gives you a right to death too.
If I see an animal in incredible pain, with no hope or survival/recovery id put it out of it's misery.
We are animals, so I see no reason to outlaw the same kind of thing for us - it's not like we are suddenly better than animals.
It may not be pleasant, but easing the suffering of others is sometimes required - also, I'm aware it's not ideal, what would be ideal would be a cure for everything - but we don't have that.
It does require clear rules & guidelines to ensure that it isn't abused, nobody is coerced into it - also so people who suffer from depression are not allowed (it has to be a severe physical & provable ailment).
The only reason to do that would be so we could test scientifically to determine how much they are suffering, depression while it clearly does exist - is notoriously hard to diagnose fully & people are known to make full recovery (but would be most likely to want to die).
With excellent guidelines, a government run organisation (no profit motive) - I believe it could be done ethically.
We are animals, so I see no reason to outlaw the same kind of thing for us - it's not like we are suddenly better than animals.
It may not be pleasant, but easing the suffering of others is sometimes required - also, I'm aware it's not ideal, what would be ideal would be a cure for everything - but we don't have that.
It does require clear rules & guidelines to ensure that it isn't abused, nobody is coerced into it - also so people who suffer from depression are not allowed (it has to be a severe physical & provable ailment).
The only reason to do that would be so we could test scientifically to determine how much they are suffering, depression while it clearly does exist - is notoriously hard to diagnose fully & people are known to make full recovery (but would be most likely to want to die).
With excellent guidelines, a government run organisation (no profit motive) - I believe it could be done ethically.
Man of Honour
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My views on this are pretty simple really. I believe that any person of sound mind should have an absolute right to self determination. If they wish to die that is wholly their choice. If they are incapable to enacting their wishes and are in pain or are suffering because of it, then I believe society has a duty to assist.
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It's a viewpoint based on a religious idea, that life is sacred & we are owned by some celestial dictator.
Personally, I'd require insane amounts of suffering for that very reason - I'm only going to get one life, I'd be bloody reluctant to end it.
But I can't speak for everybody & neither should my own subjective viewpoints be forced onto others.
Soldato
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And that is the problem. You cannot legislate for single cases.
A very large concern for me is that if you legalise assisted suicide it opens up the doors for all sorts of other nastiness. If you allow people to elect to die then how many families are going to want to encourage granny to "be less of a burden". In my opinion even a single case doesn't justify a change in legislation.
I seem to be a lone voice on here but if I am so obviously in the wrong then why is this even being debated in society? Surely parliament would just rush a change in legislation through unopposed and the people would rejoice?
I will leave this as my last comment on the subject.
Soldato
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It has nothing to do with you. It's nice you have your own opinion and all, but how about just not killing yourself and let others be?
Soldato
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Please can you point to a country which has legalised (to an extent) assisted suicide where there has been any nastiness?
Parliament doesn't reflect the views of the public, they are far too authoritarian. Public is much more liberal.
Man of Honour
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You do realize the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy right?
I don't really agree with this. Some cases of depression can be such intense psychic pain (and for such a long period) that they are far worse than physical illness. There seems to be a bias in public opinion against mental health as if it is some sort of taboo area, or some pseudo-science. It's not. Some people do suffer from serious depression for years without end, deriving absolutely no pleasure from life and feeling intense self-hatred and like a burden to others, etc, etc. The idea that someone should just be stoic and try to have a stiff upper lip old chap and man up with depression because it can't be 'scientifically determined' (read: what?) is, to excuse the phrasing, absolutely mental. Mental health is just as severe a problem as physical health, and this sort of bias you are demonstrating here is exactly what the NHS and most mental health practitioners want to do away with.
Also depression really is not 'notoriously hard to diagnose', nor is it impossible to reach any sort of 'scientifically determined' result on diagnosis - it's diagnosed much the same way 90% of physical ailments are by your GP: by symptoms and criteria. The GP isn't getting out an MRI scan every time you go complaining you suffer migraines and want some painkillers, is s/he? I can also guarantee you're not going to be giving bloodtests every single time you complain of a stomach bug. So I find a lot of what you are saying to be pretty much without any foundation.
Although of course one hugely obvious point you are missing in your argument is that there is nothing stopping a depressed person from killing him/herself. Suicide is not illegal anymore. This debate is about assisted suicide. A depressed person doesn't really need assistance from a doctor or family member - they normally are able-bodied people.
That's one key problem with society, people thinking in black & white - life = good, death = bad - while it's true is most cases reality is a million shades of grey.
We need complex laws to solve complex problems, obviously steps need to be put into place to ensure nobody is coerced - I don't think anybody was suggesting a drop in death clinic.
A "Drop in & drop dead" store in the local supermarket or anything.
Just to allow people to have the case heard & it be judged by a group of medical & ethical experts on the merits & legitimacy of the request.
Along with serious penalties for anybody found to be perverting the process.
The government tends to support continuing whatever the currently established method is - so they don't take flak if it goes wrong, simple risk avoidance holds back social progress.
Same for drug legislation, gay marriage & assisted suicide.
We need complex laws to solve complex problems, obviously steps need to be put into place to ensure nobody is coerced - I don't think anybody was suggesting a drop in death clinic.
A "Drop in & drop dead" store in the local supermarket or anything.
Just to allow people to have the case heard & it be judged by a group of medical & ethical experts on the merits & legitimacy of the request.
Along with serious penalties for anybody found to be perverting the process.
The government tends to support continuing whatever the currently established method is - so they don't take flak if it goes wrong, simple risk avoidance holds back social progress.
Same for drug legislation, gay marriage & assisted suicide.
To spud:
By your viewpoints I would take it that we should ban do not attempt resuscitation orders in hospital and never allow people to be taken off ventilators, use bypass/ECMO (artificial heart and lung machines), dialysis and other measures to ensure people never die, after all, we all have a right to life. These measures are available in the UK, we can keep people alive almost indefinitely with them and by your thinking we should take a 85 year old, riddled with cancer, do CPR, cracking all their ribs, place them on a ventilator and keep them alive for as long as possible.
Having read Mr. Nicklinson's article on the BBC website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-18398797) and spent a lot of time around dying people and those in a similar situation (lots of time with MND & stroke patients) in my professional life, I fully support a persons right to die. This however should not be a decision in the courts, perhaps for an isolated case it is acceptable but the Government is criminal if it lets the courts decide this for the whole population, it should be a huge debate encompassing all sides of the argument.
The article he writes is, in my opinion, poor. This may be from a host of factors but all he does for a few hundred words is argue against the no side instead of spending the whole article ignoring them and talking about a vision for the future and what assisted dying would look like. This debate should be unburned by the arguments of a single case and look at the heath of society as a whole, where a persons right to self determination is paramount.
By your viewpoints I would take it that we should ban do not attempt resuscitation orders in hospital and never allow people to be taken off ventilators, use bypass/ECMO (artificial heart and lung machines), dialysis and other measures to ensure people never die, after all, we all have a right to life. These measures are available in the UK, we can keep people alive almost indefinitely with them and by your thinking we should take a 85 year old, riddled with cancer, do CPR, cracking all their ribs, place them on a ventilator and keep them alive for as long as possible.
Having read Mr. Nicklinson's article on the BBC website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-18398797) and spent a lot of time around dying people and those in a similar situation (lots of time with MND & stroke patients) in my professional life, I fully support a persons right to die. This however should not be a decision in the courts, perhaps for an isolated case it is acceptable but the Government is criminal if it lets the courts decide this for the whole population, it should be a huge debate encompassing all sides of the argument.
The article he writes is, in my opinion, poor. This may be from a host of factors but all he does for a few hundred words is argue against the no side instead of spending the whole article ignoring them and talking about a vision for the future and what assisted dying would look like. This debate should be unburned by the arguments of a single case and look at the heath of society as a whole, where a persons right to self determination is paramount.
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You seem to be missing one key point.
Depressed people can get better.
People with the conditions which would meet the criteria don't.
I'm not suggesting it's not a real illness for a moment - far from it, just it's possible to fake depression, you can't fake paralysis, or medical conditions which cause intense pain (it's measurable) - which in this case isn't a risk worth taking.
Assisted suicide should not be done for people who during a temporary emotional state decide to go-to Dignitas to solve the problem - neither should people who are suffering what could be short term depression.
I've known many, including a family member who has tried to commit suicide & have failed, who now years later is happy & living a fulfilled life.
Because circumstances can change & depression can be cured.
Read what I said.
"is notoriously hard to diagnose fully" - it's not always possible to know 100% - this statement is true.
"& people are known to make full recovery" - this statement is also true.
It's pretty easy to tell if somebody is paralysed/locked in syndrome.
Don't try to insinuate that I don't believe depression or mental illnesses to be equal to more obvious illnesses - the brain is a also physical organ prone to error.
Going for assisted suicide for depression would be like going for any other illness which has a high cure rate - that's the point I was making.
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Also I and the rest of the world(well a lot) are glad that stephen hawking didn't want to top himself because of his condition.