Are you a feminist?

[RDM]

What age are you ?

38.

Are they well rounded enough to say....

Clean a gutter or fight for your honour ?

Or are you well rounded enough to say....

stitch a pocket up - or bake a loaf with cinnamon and sultanas.

Do you get my point ? If they want equality - they had better start toughening up rather than males toughening down to everything.

Clean a gutter, yes. Never had the need to fight for or have my honour fought for.

Sewing and cooking are life skills rather than gender specific, I would feel sorry for any bloke that can't do either to at least a passable standard.

So no, I don't get your point. Your point seems to be that you are just as much a slave to gender stereotypes as you think women are...

 

[Angilion]

The difference is physical, emotional etc. They are fundamentally different in general.

This whole idea that society is manipulating men to be masculine and females to be a certain way is completely ridiculous. The obsession with equality is terrifying as well. People are not the same, everyone is different and everyone has different capabilities and interest. This is what makes us humans. The notion that men women are all equal is rooted in cultural marxist ideology.

Your point of view is blatantly hypocritical and dishonest. If you believe it, you're being silly.

You are arguing against the idea of individuals being different. You are arguing in favour of the idea that people are the same - you've just created two entities and assigned everyone to one or the other.

The people who you claim are arguing in favour of the idea that people are the same are arguing the opposite - that people are all different.

So you are wrongly criticising people for doing something when they're not doing it and are in fact doing the opposite (dishonest) and you're doing it yourself while claiming to be against it (hypocritical).

 

[Haggisman]

I have a question for those who are stating that the gender differences are purely ingrained by social convention and "gender roles":

Why do you think this is?

 

[RDM]

I have a question for those who are stating that the gender differences are purely ingrained by social convention and "gender roles":

Why do you think this is?

Because I have met a wide range of people and so far capability to do any task seems to be unrelated to gender for the most part. Also if, in adversity or otherwise, you remove those gender conventions, men and women seem to be equally capable at performing roles that would otherwise be consider a gender role.

 

[Haggisman]

Because I have met a wide range of people and so far capability to do any task seems to be unrelated to gender for the most part. Also if, in adversity or otherwise, you remove those gender conventions, men and women seem to be equally capable at performing roles that would otherwise be consider a gender role.

Sorry, let me rephrase that question.

Why do you think is the cause for these social conventions and gender roles?

 

[RDM]

Sorry, let me rephrase that question.

Why do you think is the cause for these social conventions and gender roles?

Tradition mainly I would say. I don't think it is done with any real malicious intent, we just naturally settle into how things have always been. So science is a male thing, nursing is a female thing etc.

Plus as can be seen from this thread some men still like the idea of a subservient woman.

 

[Haggisman]

Tradition mainly I would say. I don't think it is done with any real malicious intent, we just naturally settle into how things have always been. So science is a male thing, nursing is a female thing etc.

Plus as can be seen from this thread some men still like the idea of a subservient woman.

But at some point these roles and conventions must have been established. Why is that?

 

[RDM]

But at some point these roles and conventions must have been established. Why is that?

Because we have lived in a patriarchal society for a very long time. With infant mortality what it was in times past too a women would likely be pregnant or caring for children for a lot of the time. Why was it that women were originally considered as chattal? I have no real idea, you would need to ask an anthropologist.

 

[anything I don't mind]

Your point of view is blatantly hypocritical and dishonest. If you believe it, you're being silly.

You are arguing against the idea of individuals being different. You are arguing in favour of the idea that people are the same - you've just created two entities and assigned everyone to one or the other.

The people who you claim are arguing in favour of the idea that people are the same are arguing the opposite - that people are all different.

So you are wrongly criticising people for doing something when they're not doing it and are in fact doing the opposite (dishonest) and you're doing it yourself while claiming to be against it (hypocritical).

What? I didn't create two entities the creator did. They are called male and female, this is not some superficial label that man has assigned to itself.

It is not that difficult to comprehend. Male and female are different and one can make generalizations based on these natural classifications. However everyone is an individual with different capabilities and interests.

wait, have we just confirmed that RDM is of the female classification? o.O

 

[Haggisman]

Because we have lived in a patriarchal society for a very long time. With infant mortality what it was in times past too a women would likely be pregnant or caring for children for a lot of the time. Why was it that women were originally considered as chattal? I have no real idea, you would need to ask an anthropologist.

It was really a rhetorical question. The real answer is that there ARE differences, and to argue that their aren't is an insult to both men and women.

The gender roles and social conventions which you blame for all of the perceived differences are as much an effect as a cause of the differences; they wouldn't exist if the differences weren't there in the first place.

 

[RDM]

It was really a rhetorical question. The real answer is that there ARE differences, and to argue that their aren't is an insult to both men and women.

The gender roles and social conventions which you blame for all of the perceived differences are as much an effect as a cause of the differences; they wouldn't exist if the differences weren't there in the first place.

I had a feeling that was where you were heading. Frankly I disagree with you. Whilst there are general differences between the genders they are not specific. Some women are stronger than some men for example. The "there are differences and that is why gender roles exist" is overplayed. What exactly is there that makes a woman more suited to be a nurse, primary school teacher or secretary? What is it about a man that makes him more suited to be in IT, an engineer, a lawyer? Nothing that I can see.

However if you really want to stick to outdated gender roles feel free, however I have no desire to restrict either myself or my child to specific careers and specific opportunities just because it has always been that way.

 

[RDM]

What? I didn't create two entities the creator did. They are called male and female, this is not some superficial label that man has assigned to itself.

Before you start using some creator you are going to have to prove it exists.

wait, have we just confirmed that RDM is of the female classification? o.O

Nope, male.

 

[Haggisman]

I had a feeling that was where you were heading. Frankly I disagree with you. Whilst there are general differences between the genders they are not specific. Some women are stronger than some men for example. The "there are differences and that is why gender roles exist" is overplayed. What exactly is there that makes a woman more suited to be a nurse, primary school teacher or secretary? What is it about a man that makes him more suited to be in IT, an engineer, a lawyer? Nothing that I can see.

However if you really want to stick to outdated gender roles feel free, however I have no desire to restrict either myself or my child to specific careers and specific opportunities just because it has always been that way.

So if that's what you believe, then can you please explain where these roles originated?

 

[RDM]

So if that's what you believe, then can you please explain where these roles originated?

How about you cut to the chase and say what you actually mean rather than asking a bunch of questions to try and tease me towards your point of view? Save us all some time!

I answered this above anyway.

 

[Burnsy2023]

I had a feeling that was where you were heading. Frankly I disagree with you. Whilst there are general differences between the genders they are not specific. Some women are stronger than some men for example. The "there are differences and that is why gender roles exist" is overplayed. What exactly is there that makes a woman more suited to be a nurse, primary school teacher or secretary? What is it about a man that makes him more suited to be in IT, an engineer, a lawyer? Nothing that I can see.

However if you really want to stick to outdated gender roles feel free, however I have no desire to restrict either myself or my child to specific careers and specific opportunities just because it has always been that way.

I don't think it's possible to agree with you more. I am totally on your page.

 

[Six7th]

So if that's what you believe, then can you please explain where these roles originated?

There's a whole wealth of information available on the web about gender role theory and it's origins. I'm not a sociologist so I'll let you do your own research to answer your question.

 

[anything I don't mind]

I had a feeling that was where you were heading. Frankly I disagree with you. Whilst there are general differences between the genders they are not specific. Some women are stronger than some men for example. The "there are differences and that is why gender roles exist" is overplayed. What exactly is there that makes a woman more suited to be a nurse, primary school teacher or secretary? What is it about a man that makes him more suited to be in IT, an engineer, a lawyer? Nothing that I can see.

However if you really want to stick to outdated gender roles feel free, however I have no desire to restrict either myself or my child to specific careers and specific opportunities just because it has always been that way.

OK what about jobs that requires heavy lifting. surely you can agree that the reason these are male dominated is because of the male physique being more prone to strength. Unless you are saying that that is just a cultural based infliction that can easily be changed by teaching little girls that they are exactly the same as men they just have different private parts?

I am all for breaking traditions but i think you are mixing up the role of the different genders with other cultural traditions and you are ignoring the natural evolutionary characteristics that we often find in other animal species as well.

 

[RDM]

OK what about jobs that requires heavy lifting. surely you can agree that the reason these are male dominated is because of the male physique being more prone to strength.

Not a huge number of them about. But yes they will be male dominated due to the fact that men have more testosterone and so put on mucsle easier. However that isnt to say that women cant do that role. I am not saying that there aren't physical differences but that the physical differences are very much a minor reason why gender roles exist.

Are you cut out for a job doing heavy lifting? I know I'm not.

Unless you are saying that that is just a cultural based infliction that can easily be changed by teaching little girls that they are exactly the same as men they just have different private parts?

For the vast majority of jobs this is pretty much the truth. Even those involving heavy lifting if a girl wants to do them, she can.

I am all for breaking traditions but i think you are mixing up the role of the different genders with other cultural traditions and you are ignoring the natural evolutionary characteristics that we often find in other animal species as well.

You however are finding it very difficult to quantify where these natural evolutionary characteristics really come in to play though. Especially in the modern world. So far you have managed to identify "Men are, on average, stronger than women." However that doesnt stop strong women doing roles normally said to be a mans role.

It seems odd that you say you want people to be treated as individuals yet are quite happy to treat them as a collective depending on what genitals they happen to have.

 

[Burnsy2023]

OK what about jobs that requires heavy lifting. surely you can agree that the reason these are male dominated is because of the male physique being more prone to strength.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that women can't or don't do that kind of work even if it's not in a hugely popular career choice.

 

[Haggisman]

How about you cut to the chase and say what you actually mean rather than asking a bunch of questions to try and tease me towards your point of view? Save us all some time!

I answered this above anyway.

The main point of your answer was:

Because we have lived in a patriarchal society for a very long time.

Yes we have, however it didn't start that way, at some point society must have become patriarchal. Someone didn't just wake up in their cave at some point and think "you know what, I think a male's role is A, B, C, and a female's role is X, Y, Z" so there must be a reason for it.

"What I actually mean" as you put it, is that gender roles and social conventions aren't just there for the sake of it - there are reasons for it, and while you can say things like "there are women who are stronger than most men", that's the exception rather than the norm.

Again you can argue that that's purely down to nurture or enforced gender roles, but the fact is that men are genetically disposed to be physically stronger than women. This is reinforced by society, and I'm not going to argue that point at all, but society is not the root cause.

There are other differences as well, for example women's superior ability to discern colour/shade - how is this caused by socially enforced gender roles?

Men and women are physically different - there's no arguing against that, and like it or not, it does mean they are better suited for different roles.

That doesn't mean that men can't do roles women are better suited to, and that women can't do roles that men are better suited to, it just means that the average woman will be better able to do a job they are better suited to than the average man, and vice versa.

I'm not sure why you're so intent on arguing that men and women are the same?

Different does not mean less equal. For example I like pizza, I also like sushi. Both are very different, however I like them both equally.

There's a whole wealth of information available on the web about gender role theory and it's origins. I'm not a sociologist so I'll let you do your own research to answer your question.

If you're not going to bother backing up your opinion, then why bother posting it all?