Poll: Sunday trading laws

[Glaucus]

Of course it's rubbish. There are many sectors that you have to work Sundays, so how can you use that as an argument, when many shops don't open Sunday? It is not the most worked Sunday sector.
Most critical sectors will have a far higher Sunday work ratio.

Again it has nothing to do with benefiting the industry. It's removing a pointless law and allowing a company to decide.

Yes other sectors do have specific laws, but unlike Sunday trading they have a reason. Like safety for driving jobs.

 

[Castiel]

I used to live in Hong Kong and it has no such law.

Shops open 7 days a week, some stores open early like 7am (bakery, food places) and some opens late like 10/11am (toy shops) but most stays open until around 9/10pm every single day to cater for people finishing work and still can shop. They basically open the hours that suits them best for their target consumers and maximise profits.

With minimum wages and maximum working hours in the UK, it surely opens up a lot of jobs. Employees are not going to be forced to work more and not get a pay rise, as there is a statutory minimum in place.

I think the only thing that stops it is the culture. We are used to being lazy on Sundays (must be the "even god rests on the 7th day" malarky lol), even though people in retails, restaurants and a lot of service industries works Sunday anyway, they just have another day off instead. The market is more than capable of setting its own balance, other countries can and why can't we?

Side note, going holiday in this country as a foreigner must be well awkward when you want to do stuff on a Sunday.

Even train service are limited.

However Sunday in Hong Kong is considered a day of rest regardless and many people choose not to work.....and given the lack of any regulation in the employment sectors of Hong Kong or China, I ma not sure that they are best model to follow with regard to protecting vulnerable workers.

 

[Raymond Lin]

However Sunday in Hong Kong is considered a day of rest regardless and many people choose not to work.....and given the lack of any regulation in the employment sectors of Hong Kong or China, I ma not sure that they are best model to follow with regard to protecting vulnerable workers.

In retail terms, Sunday is just as busy as Saturday. Rest days for office workers yes, retails POV, it never sleeps.

There are no difference in operating hours as a consumer that i experienced between the days.

Like I said, a business will operate in the hours that it thinks will maximum profits. Do you know why many Chinese takeaways closes on a Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday in this country? and NEVER Sundays? It's not because they are not Catholics or Christians and don't go to Church. It's money, Sunday is a busier day than one the day they choose to close, being it Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday. It would hurt the business to close on Sunday and opens in the middle of the week.

p.s. I am not an expert on employment laws, especially in a foreign country but i bet my bottom dollar that employment laws are not the same between Hong Kong and China. I am not sure where China come into it as I have not mentioned it.

I only picked HK because it is a place I have first hand experience in from both living there and as a visitor. I would pick NYC or if it had been the same.

 

[Andrew_McP]

More opening hours = higher prices or lower wages (Hong Kong's minimum wage is about 1/3 of that here). 24/7 hour shopping already makes no economic sense to retailers except in a few of the busiest inner city stores. All it does is spread sales out over a longer and more inefficient period. Which is why there is so much pressure in supermarkets to make (and I mean make) people use self service. It's all about cutting overheads now profits are so much harder to come by.

Personally I'm in favour of 24/7 opening of all businesses. Sleep and healthy working patterns are over-rated. Guaranteed family leisure time is over rated. And flexible, zero hour contracts which allow employers to mess their workforce about are a really edgy and exciting way to live.

I want nothing more than an endless conveyor belt of shopping opportunities with which I can fill the shallow emptiness of my existence.

 

[Castiel]

Of course it's rubbish. There are many sectors that you have to work Sundays, so how can you use that as an argument?

Again it has nothing to do with benefiting the industry. It's removing a pointless law and allowing a company to decide.

Yes other sectors do have specific laws, but unlike Sunday trading they have a reason. Like safety for driving jobs.

The voluntary nature of the laws (specifically if you regard the law in Scotland as it is related only to the voluntary nature of working on a Sunday) do have tangible reasons which I have laid out.

If other industries also have similar concerns then they should also have the same consideration in law....the case is that retail sector workers are more likely to be exploited that many other sectors, especially the skilled ones.

Also there is an argument for Sunday Trading Laws generally, not only the protection of workers, vulnerable because of economic conditions and lack of job security so they can have a day which can be devoted to cultural or familial activities, but also the protection of small and medium retailers, that would face higher competition from larger shops which can incur the added costs of doubling the wages of their workers for Sunday work and the very real fear that this would further isolate small retailers and limit overall choice in the marketplace.

You think all that and other justifications mentioned are all rubbish and pointless, I do not.

There are many Countries that have similar or stricter Sunday trading laws than we do, other who have little or no regulation at all, it is not something that is particularly right or wrong, but up to the cultural and traditional standards of each Country...I think it is important to allow people the right to at least one regular day that they can all get together...currently that is culturally Sunday...not everyone chooses to do this, some do it some Sundays and not others....but I think it is important to give people the option and if a sector of employment is more likely to be affected by changes in the trading laws or working practices (such as the incidence of short notice rota allocation in retail, open zero or minimum hour contracts and so on...) then I think their workers should retain some protections within those changes so that the most vulnerable and easily exploited members of the workforce have a modicum of protection in retaining a regular day off without being forced to find alternative employment or not being able to have at least one day a week with their family or shared activities as they so choose.

We have a difference of opinion and we should leave it at that before the argument becomes circular....and I need to go to bed anyway.

 

[KatanaDV20]

Scrap it. Works fine elsewhere dont think theres any problem with it. Customers will come and people are free to choose when to work.

 

[Brookert]

Personally I'm in favour of 24/7 opening of all businesses. Sleep and healthy working patterns are over-rated. Guaranteed family leisure time is over rated. And flexible, zero hour contracts which allow employers to mess their workforce about are a really edgy and exciting way to live.

Couldn't have said it more sarcastically myself

Why not do away with weekends while we are at it, and have a 7 day working week, bank holidays can go too!

 

[Castiel]

Personally I'm in favour of 24/7 opening of all businesses. Sleep and healthy working patterns are over-rated. Guaranteed family leisure time is over rated. And flexible, zero hour contracts which allow employers to mess their workforce about are a really edgy and exciting way to live.

Precisely why minimum protections should be in place, as they are currently in the retail sector for staff....If store wish to open longer, then they need to do so within a framework that doesn't unduly impact on a minimum standard of work/life balance for their staff...adn this includes having the option to a regular day they can spend with their family.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Precisely why minimum protections should be in place, as they are currently in the retail sector for staff....If store wish to open longer, then they need to do so within a framework that doesn't unduly impact on a minimum standard of work/life balance for their staff...adn this includes having the option to a regular day they can spend with their family.

They can keep that balance, just keep the maximum working hours. If stores wants to open longer hours, hire more staff to fill those shifts.

I am not advocating for staff to work more hours on same salary, far from that. The way I see it, if a business chooses to open 24/7, it has to find the staff that fills the 24/7 slots and as the business owner, it would make no sense to keep it open that long if it doesn't generate more profits. Sooner or later, each business will find its equilibrium in its opening hours to maximise profits.

 

[Glaucus]

They can keep that balance, just keep the maximum working hours. If stores wants to open longer hours, hire more staff to fill those shifts.

I am not advocating for staff to work more hours on same salary, far from that. The way I see it, if a business chooses to open 24/7, it has to find the staff that fills the 24/7 slots and as the business owner, it would make no sense to keep it open that long if it doesn't generate more profits. Sooner or later, each business will find its equilibrium in its opening hours to maximise profits.

Which is how it works for the other 5 and a half days a week. Some supermarkets in busy areas are open 24/7 and some still only open more normal times.

Removing Sunday trade laws, does not impact on any of the other employment laws. Maximum working hours (Time directive), minimum pay, amount of breaks or anything else.

As I said I can't ever see, say a DIY shop staying open, you can't do DIY at night, so the amount of people in there wouldn't be popular. The only real ones would be supermarket, with the others having a few extra hours, to bring them in line with the rest of the week.

 

[Castiel]

They can keep that balance, just keep the maximum working hours. If stores wants to open longer hours, hire more staff to fill those shifts.

I am not advocating for staff to work more hours on same salary, far from that. The way I see it, if a business chooses to open 24/7, it has to find the staff that fills the 24/7 slots and as the business owner, it would make no sense to keep it open that long if it doesn't generate more profits. Sooner or later, each business will find its equilibrium in its opening hours to maximise profits.

The issue with retail is that many are on zero hour contracts, which means employers could either extend their curent hours without notice or those who work a set amount of hours but are on variable 5 out of 7 rotas could find themselves unable to have a regular day off which coincides with the rest of their family......something that the current law allows them to specify to their employer if they so choose.

I have said that I have no issue with retailers opening 24/7 as long as the workers, who are often some of the most vulnerable in the workplace, retain the voluntary nature of working Sunday.

I do not see how this would adversely affect the retailer as you pointed out, they would have to hire staff to fill the slots anyway....at least this way staff who do not want to work on Sunday are not forced to and they can opt out if they choose or if the employer wishes to offer incentives....

I am basically in favour of scrapping the opening time part of the regulation, but less enthusiastic about scrapping protections for workers to enable them to have at least one day where they can have a family day....especially when you consider the demographic of who generally work in retail...especially the large supermarkets.

 

[TheVoice]

As someone who (unfortunately) works in retail, I like having 5 hours to myself at work on Sunday mornings before the doors open and customers arrive.

Similarly, the time after we close is rather useful (and sometimes vital) for doing certain tasks that can't be done during trading hours.

 

[Glaucus]

It would be better bringing in laws, like a minimum rest period per week in a straight block unless you opted out.
Zero rosters and short notice shifts are not retail specific either and is common in other sectors.
So again should be applied fairly across the board and unlike everyone being able to get Sunday off work, is workable.

 

[Castiel]

It would be better bringing in laws, like a minimum rest period per week in a straight block unless you opted out.
Zero rosters and short notice shifts are not retail specific either and is common in other sectors.
So again should be applied fairly across the board and unlike everyone being able to get Sunday off work, is workable.

They are more common in retail environments however....and we need to consider who supermarkets in particular (as they would be the most likely to extend to 24/7 operations) predominantly employs....for example; a working mother whose short notice shift pattern means she could in practice work almost if not every weekend is not conducive to a good and effective environment for her children...retaining the voluntary nature of Sunday working allows her to carry on working and not be forced to choose between a family life and work.

This wouldn't unduly impact on the employers ability to operate and it gives a modicum of stability and protection to the employee....

I cannot see why you are so opposed to this.

 

[Glaucus]

Because it singles out a certain group that aren't in a specific problem. Everything ststated so far applies to far more industries than just retail. So why should retail be protected and not others. Nor do I think everyone getting Sunday off would work in modern society. Business needs the ability to cover essential work.

A better law fits everyone with these issues and I don't see why it needs to be retail specific. Why not add better thought out laws to replace Sunday trading laws, which covers everyone.

If you think people being forced to work 7days is an issue, isn't tht already covered in time directive?

 

[Castiel]

Because it singles out a certain group that aren't in a specific problem. Everything ststated so far applies to far more industries than just retail. So why should retail be protected and not others. Nor do I think everyone getting Sunday off would work in modern society. Business need the ability to cover essential work.

Giving people the opt out of being considered for Sunday shift allocation is not going to impact a businesses ability to cover essential work....if it does then that business seriously needs to address its poorly managed business model.

And this is about trading on a Sunday....something that many business either do not do, or only run essential operations...which they account for in their business models either with extra staff or rotas that allocate Sunday working on a rota'd basis (like 1 in 4) or with Sunday working incentives such as overtime and/or pay enhancements.

Retail however has a larger predominance of both the demographic most likely to be adversely affected, most likely to employ the most vulnerable in our workforce and the desire for full operations on a 24/7 basis, specifically the larger supermarket retailers....and there simply is no reasonable argument to remove that protection from them....

You are also not understanding what I am saying...this isn't abut total hours, or working 7 days a week...but the allocation of a regular day off that coincides with those that children and other members of the family are not at school or work...for the demographic most likely employed by big supermarkets this is more significant than most other sectors.....it is simply allowing people to opt out of Sunday as a consideration in their rota allocation, nothing more. Currently there is this protection and the employee has to give 3 months notice if they wish to opt out of Sunday working. More than enough time for an employer to find alternatives. It is also not about giving everyone Sunday off....many people want to work Sunday, many prefer it or need to......there is no reason that people should not retain the option.

There are obviously some professions this would be impractical or unfeasible, but in any occupation, the allocation of at least half of the monthy Sundays for days off should have no material impact on that business. I didn't work every Sunday in the Services, despite being in a critical position for example...

You could argue that other industries or businesses which have similar demographics and working condition should be included in the opt out regulation, but not removing altogether.

 

[Lunatic Dreyfus]

My guess is that the people advocating this aren't the ones that would be making the 24/7 consumer dream, a reality.

 

[MagicBoy]

Bingo. The benefits to the economy are marginal at best.

One could suggest they are are all preaching from an ivory tower. I've worked in in retail and wouldn't wish it on anyone. I'd far prefer we went back to the way things were when I was a kid, with most things closed on Sundays and some shops on Wednesday afternoons.

 

[LeeUK]

No one in retail wants to work Sunday's. You got to bare in mind that the shops may just be open 10-4 but a lot of staff still have to work longer hours.

It's OK for office types who work 9-5 mon-fri to sit there and demand shops should be open 24/7. Would you want to work 24/7?

 

[shoes]

Indeed, It must suck getting a **** wage working in retail then on top of that the possibility that if you are a parent, missing out on time with your children and having to pay for that pleasure.

Should have got yourself sorted before breeding tbh