BSc/BA/MSc/MBA after you name...

[crinkleshoes]

I'm not naive, I just don't appreciate people de-evaluating my hard work because I wasn't given the chance to get to the best uni that I could.

Could you clarify this - the way it's phrased, almost sounds like you were expecting someone to hand it to you on a platter

Did you not have the ability to earn a spot at a more prestigious uni? Why?

Where you get your degree shouldn't matter - it should be the fact that you have a degree at all. I know it does, but that's besides the point. It's morally wrong, and I really don't appreciate random people on the internet disparaging people for what uni they go to. Even indirectly, as that just shows that they agree with how the system works.

"The system" tried to bring those with degrees from all unis in to the same pot as the ones with degrees from prestigious unis.

To a degree, this has worked... but it's devalued the market in the process. This is bad for those who did earn a place at the more prestigious unis, however I doubt it has a tremendous effect as you're still able to list your uni on your CV

It's not morally wrong in my book, it's simple business sense... hire better people, earn more money.

A degree used to be something worth getting, now that ~50% of leavers have a degree... it's no longer worth anywhere near the same.

Yes, Greenwich isn't the most prestigious uni, but I'm doing a degree in maths. Surely a degree in maths, no matter where it's from, should still be an achievement.

Apply it to another discipline, where the difference is greater, perhaps... a form of musical degree from "Juliard" (sp?) in the USA has a fantastic reputation, other places not so much. If you were looking to add a member to your orchestra & were unable to hear them play... would you chose the person from Juliard or the person from a uni you had to research to discover the name, only to discover the uni hadn't even been around very long.

Obscure reference, perhaps... but the same principle.

"Where you get your degree from shouldn't matter" - this is idealistic and naive. Of course it should matter. There are 150 degree-awarding institutions in the UK. 40-50% of leavers have a degree. There are nowhere near enough jobs for 40-50% of the young population to find 'graduate' employment. Where you get your degree from becomes one of the prime filtering methods. Are you really saying that someone from London Met that entered uni with 3D's at A-Level 'deserves' to be considered an equal applicant with someone that got 5A's and went to Oxford? Ludicrous.

Yes, you're doing a Maths degree... but the quality and standards of assessment change massively between universities. Again, a 2:1 in Maths from London Met will be a HELL of a lot easier to get than a 2:1 in Maths from Oxford. The standards of teaching and the expectations are far, far higher. So employers as a result consider where you got your degree from almost as highly as the grade you got. A first from a low-ranking institution unfortunately isn't as much of a personal achievement as a first from a top-ranking one. These things matter. Like earlier posts in this thread have mentioned, giving everyone a 'degree' devalues the qualification and makes it vague and lacking any real standard. People look at how 'traditional' or 'respected' your subject is, and they look at where you got it from. It says almost as much as the grade itself.

At least we agree on something

 

[Shayper]

The thing is, banking is massively competitive. High-paid graduate jobs have several hundred (if not thousands) of applicants for every single job vacancy. How are you going to compare to a Maths/Economics grad from, say, Oxbridge/UCL/Imperial/Warwick? Where you get your degree from really does matter. Either that or the people you know, etc.

Not meaning to be discouraging at all, just pointing out a fairly obvious reality to the graduate job market that I'm not sure you've realised.

I have realised them. I'm working to get round that by doing placements. I don't understand why my (very) hard work should be devalued because it's at greenwich.

 

[Cagerty]

That's a shame mate, Durham is fantastic for privately funding Classics and Literature! Surely one of the best places in the UK for chances of getting departmental funding.

I know, my tutor practically wrote my AHRC application and I still didn't get it. It's ok though, It wasn't really want I wanted to do anyway.

 

[InKursion]

I am not trying to disparage newer universities ( some are very good, but others are terrible ). I am more objecting to 'fake' degrees. Your doing Maths, which is a traditional, academically rigorous subject and it is still a degree in Maths so it shouldn't matter that it is from Greenwich. Unfortunately to a lot of snobby employers it does matter which Uni or public school you went to. Employers I think look at the uni rather then the quality of the actual course, which is wrong.

Well, do you expect every grad employer to research the syllabus/curriculum of every university? To look at the academic biographies and research output of every institution to make sure its marking standards are high, and its examinations difficult? Of course not. Instead, at best, they're going to look at a league table or blindly filter out by degree classification.

This is why putting BSc/BA/Msc after your name can be quite pointless, without additional qualification

 

[Shayper]

Well, do you expect every grad employer to research the syllabus/curriculum of every university? To look at the academic biographies and research output of every institution to make sure its marking standards are high, and its examinations difficult? Of course not. Instead, at best, they're going to look at a league table or blindly filter out by degree classification.

This is why putting BSc/BA/Msc after your name can be quite pointless, without additional qualification

Yes, they should. We put in the effort to get our degree, why can't they put in the effort to research how hard it is?

 

[crinkleshoes]

Maths, at Greenwich, with a view to going into banking.

And I know my response was a little... attacking. I apologise, I'm not very good at keeping my emotions out of things.

I'm not trying to attack all either, just frustrated that I feel what I earned has been devalued for some form of political correctness.

I'm also pretty much the opposite - good at keeping my feelings seperate... however I find my version of "common sense" gets me frustrated, so that's hardly completely seperating emotion

Perhaps I should re-phrase in that I'm good at ignoring (read: not realising/recognising) other peoples emotions I'm frightfully devoid of empathy.



The important thing here is that it gets you where you want to go. If your degree is well suited to the type of job you're looking for, then that's all that really matters for you personally

However, when you want to go for that higher-up job & you're pitted against Oxbridge/Imperial grads - if you both have vaguely the same experience/merits - who do you think is going to be hired?

Of course it's not ideal for all involved in the process, but it's the way the world works...

 

[InKursion]

I have realised them. I'm working to get round that by doing placements. I don't understand why my (very) hard work should be devalued because it's at greenwich.

Because, from the age of 12, you are drilled to do as well as you can in school and to excel above others. People that get into top universities are people that probably spent a great deal of their schooldays working hard, revising hard, and generally trying to stand-out as much as they can academically to get into their top institutions.

Are you trying to say their hard work throughout their teens shouldn't be recognised? That it's somehow 'unfair' they are considered more academically strsong than you? It works both ways. It may seem unfair to you to be discriminated against because you're at a low-ranking university... but wouldn't it be unfair on those that worked their arses off to not be recognised? Our entire education system is predicated on elitism and hierarchy. That's the reality of it.

 

[Posty]

I did Economics at an ex-poly and I found it very hard to get a placement in my sandwich year because I had 2 Ds A level which was my last official qualifications.. That is why I was at a ex-poly too they accept anyone.

Anyway I got a basic job in my sandwich year after trying to get Economics/Finance/Accounting placements.

 

[InKursion]

I know, my tutor practically wrote my AHRC application and I still didn't get it. It's ok though, It wasn't really want I wanted to do anyway.

AHRC is pretty much a no-go unless you've already been given some sort of funding or scholarship by someone else. That or a stellar proposal that especially ticks their buttons. Did you not qualify for any department/college/university funding? That's the stuff Durham is good for. They seem to have piles of cash.

 

[crinkleshoes]

No, your statement is not true. The majority of the population will earn much, much more than £74k in their lifetime.

Didn't realise you were trying to add up all years of employment... is it not obvious I'm talking about a salary and/or yearly earnings?

I hope it is now...

Where did I get the idea of your more than blatant love for job titles from? It's a bit obvious. More so with that reply.

Huh? You're reading things I'm not typing

Companies have to create the titles to be able to assign the money to them... although I'm not completely up-to-speed with the way that works, that's the only reason for the new title... so that they can give me more money! That's what I care about... the money.

If they paid me enough, I'd be perfectly happy for them to refer to me as random string of expletifs... I couldn't care less about the "title".

 

[Shayper]

I'm not trying to attack all either, just frustrated that I feel what I earned has been devalued for some form of political correctness.

I'm also pretty much the opposite - good at keeping my feelings seperate... however I find my version of "common sense" gets me frustrated, so that's hardly completely seperating emotion

Perhaps I should re-phrase in that I'm good at ignoring (read: not realising/recognising) other peoples emotions I'm frightfully devoid of empathy.



The important thing here is that it gets you where you want to go. If your degree is well suited to the type of job you're looking for, then that's all that really matters for you personally

However, when you want to go for that higher-up job & you're pitted against Oxbridge/Imperial grads - if you both have vaguely the same experience/merits - who do you think is going to be hired?

Of course it's not ideal for all involved in the process, but it's the way the world works...

Maybe I just want a perfect world, but if I was the employer, I wouldn't care what university they went to. I would choose the person best suited for the job.

Because, from the age of 12, you are drilled to do as well as you can in school and to excel above others. People that get into top universities are people that probably spent a great deal of their schooldays working hard, revising hard, and generally trying to stand-out as much as they can academically to get into their top institutions.

Are you trying to say their hard work throughout their teens shouldn't be recognised? That it's somehow 'unfair' they are considered more academically strsong than you? It works both ways. It may seem unfair to you to be discriminated against because you're at a low-ranking university... but wouldn't it be unfair on those that worked their arses off to not be recognised? Our entire education system is predicated on elitism and hierarchy. That's the reality of it.

No I'm not. I was one of the top 400 students in the country for maths at one point, I worked my arse off as well. Unfortunately I had massive personal problems which led to a complete lack of motivation (accentuated by my Aspergers) during the last year of my A-Levels. After the first year I was predicted an A* in maths, further maths, physics and chemistry; and had offers from Warwick, Bath and Loughborough among others. Because of the personal problems that I had (including a highly abusive stepfather who constantly put me down for being better than him, and constantly told me that no-one likes people who are smart - which led to my lack of any motivation) I didn't get the grades in my second year that I needed. And before you tell me "You should have ignored those", I would like to see anyone deal with the situation I was in and do well.

 

[InKursion]

Yes, they should. We put in the effort to get our degree, why can't they put in the effort to research how hard it is?

They get 100's of applicants for every job vacancy. They don't owe you anything. They can - and probably will - filter out for 2:1's at the minimum, and will favour 'top' universities because it basically says the applicant is, at least, hard-working and intelligent.

 

[Things change I've changed]

After this thread I'm always going to think of crinkleshoes as Frasier Crane.

 

[Cagerty]

I have realised them. I'm working to get round that by doing placements. I don't understand why my (very) hard work should be devalued because it's at greenwich.

Well doing placements will certainly help a lot. I think all the others were trying to point out was that the banking / financial services industry is a very competetive field. You will going up against Oxbridge graduates with double firsts in who went to Eton and Harrow etc. The people who are doing the recruiting will also have probably gone to these schools and universities and will favour people who went to these institutions. Obviously some people who have not had these advantages do get in to it ( even some people with no education at all ), but they are few and far between. All the same I wish you all the best and hope you can succeed in this!

We are also not devaluing your hard work, just pointing out some obvious facts.

 

[crinkleshoes]

I have realised them. I'm working to get round that by doing placements. I don't understand why my (very) hard work should be devalued because it's at greenwich.

Because what you're taught, how you're taught and how you're assessed will not be anywhere near the level of Oxbridge.

The Oxbridge experience is very different to all the other unis in the country I've experienced - much more pressurised environment.

This isn't just some elitist cliche that's been bat around for a long time, they really do deliver something different.

The increased pressure and how you're taught to deal with it is especially applicable to something like banking.

Standing out by getting plenty of placements under your belt will help you, tremendously - so don't stop doing that, do as much as you can - it all helps.

 

[Cagerty]

After this thread I'm always going to think of crinkleshoes as Frasier Crane.

Crinkleshoes: Hello Cagerty, I'm listening.......

 

[Dj_Jestar]

I think you need a refund on that "Top-Class" education of yours, crinkleshoes.

It's aided me in earning more at 24 years of age than the majority can hope to in their lifetime... I wouldn't be where I am now without my top-class education.

Your words, not mine. So at 24 you've earnt more "than the majority can hope to in their lifetime". £74k gross is way, way less than most earn in a lifetime.

You couldn't care less about the title, but yet show explicit glee at getting a "new title" in one post, make 3 references to getting one in another, and also explicit joy at fitting it into your CV "somehow" (like it isn't already obvious how a Job Title fits into a CV.)

"expletifs" ?

And what bull about having to invent a Job title so they can pay you money. Haha. Are you literally making this up as you go along?

 

[Shayper]

Because what you're taught, how you're taught and how you're assessed will not be anywhere near the level of Oxbridge.

The Oxbridge experience is very different to all the other unis in the country I've experienced - much more pressurised environment.

This isn't just some elitist cliche that's been bat around for a long time, they really do deliver something different.

The increased pressure and how you're taught to deal with it is especially applicable to something like banking.

Standing out by getting plenty of placements under your belt will help you, tremendously - so don't stop doing that, do as much as you can - it all helps.

I am doing all I can, however, I shall reiterate:

No I'm not. I was one of the top 400 students in the country for maths at one point, I worked my arse off as well. Unfortunately I had massive personal problems which led to a complete lack of motivation (accentuated by my Aspergers) during the last year of my A-Levels. After the first year I was predicted an A* in maths, further maths, physics and chemistry; and had offers from Warwick, Bath and Loughborough among others. Because of the personal problems that I had (including a highly abusive stepfather who constantly put me down for being better than him, and constantly told me that no-one likes people who are smart - which led to my lack of any motivation) I didn't get the grades in my second year that I needed. And before you tell me "You should have ignored those", I would like to see anyone deal with the situation I was in and do well.

 

[InKursion]

Shaypher, your case clearly has exceptional circumstances and you have a lot to say for yourself. Even though the education system is elitist, it's not determinist. There's nothing saying that because you went to a lower-ranked university you are forever doomed, and will never find work. Not at all. If you can communicate your talent and passion to an employer, of course you'll get the job. All we are saying is that there is of course a general form of elitism where employers prefer prestigious universities. It's a brand appeal, if anything. If you can get your foot in the door, though, there's nothing to say an employer won't consider you just because of your university. It doesn't make or break you for life. I know many of my friends that graduated from Oxford in '11 that are still unemployed or doing menial work now.

 

[InKursion]

Because what you're taught, how you're taught and how you're assessed will not be anywhere near the level of Oxbridge.

The Oxbridge experience is very different to all the other unis in the country I've experienced - much more pressurised environment.

This isn't just some elitist cliche that's been bat around for a long time, they really do deliver something different.

The increased pressure and how you're taught to deal with it is especially applicable to something like banking.

Standing out by getting plenty of placements under your belt will help you, tremendously - so don't stop doing that, do as much as you can - it all helps.

What college were you at? I ask because your comments earlier about the LLB and DPhil/PhD's seemed very misguided.