Lance Armstrong charges

LOL, doping agencies are just so dumb. Strip the titles from him? Yeah right, he's about the only cyclist anyone's heard of (I'm talking about people that don't follow cycling). He'll never be stripped of his titles, he'll always be the 7 time winner of le Tour de France, regardless of what some doping organisations say.
 
oli collett said:
I think by "anyone" you mean anyone inside the USA.
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I'm not so sure. I reckon a lot of people would be able to name Lance Armstrong as a famous cyclist, but good luck getting another name out of them!

(by a *lot* i'd estimate 10-15% of the population. Half of the population can barely name another county, so I wouldn't put my estimate much higher)

Sad day for cycling really, by refusing to fight he really has basically admitted to doping. I can understand he is sick of the allegations etc, but it's his choice really. If he wants to get on with other more important things in his life than fighting the charges, then fair enough to him.
 
oli collett said:
I think by "anyone" you mean anyone inside the USA.
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Indeed, I was going to point out that a Cyclist currently holds the title of Sports Personality of the year.

I doubt anyone in the country knows who this guy is....
Bradley-Wiggins-sits-on-a-011.jpg
:p
 
leaskovski said:
Link?
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http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/armstrongcharging0613.pdf

"Representatives of USADA have interviewed Dr. Martial Saugy, Director of the Lausanne Anti-Doping Laboratory which analyzed the urine samples from the 2001 Tour of Switzerland. Dr. Saugy stated that Lance Armstrong's urine sample results from the 2001 Tour of Switzerland were indicative of EPO use. Multiple witnesses have also told USADA that Lance Armstrong told them he had tested positive in 2001 and that the test result had been covered up."
 
I'm not really sure what to think now.

A lot of independent commentators are saying that by giving up, it could be seen that this is something of an admission that there is some degree of guilt. With so many X-Teammates also lined up to testify against him, its not good either.

As I've said before, I really hope he isn't found to be a doper, as he is such a legend. I also think to find him as such and strip all his titles wouldn't be doing the sport any favours either.
 
From the beginning, however, this investigation has not been about learning the truth or cleaning up cycling, but about punishing me at all costs. I am a retired cyclist, yet USADA has lodged charges over 17 years old despite its own 8-year limitation. As respected organizations such as UCI and USA Cycling have made clear, USADA lacks jurisdiction even to bring these charges. The international bodies governing cycling have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in USADA’s improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are made without authority. And as many others, including USADA’s own arbitrators, have found, there is nothing even remotely fair about its process. USADA has broken the law, turned its back on its own rules, and stiff-armed those who have tried to persuade USADA to honor its obligations. At every turn, USADA has played the role of a bully, threatening everyone in its way and challenging the good faith of anyone who questions its motives or its methods, all at U.S. taxpayers’ expense. For the last two months, USADA has endlessly repeated the mantra that there should be a single set of rules, applicable to all, but they have arrogantly refused to practice what they preach. On top of all that, USADA has allegedly made deals with other riders that circumvent their own rules as long as they said I cheated. Many of those riders continue to race today.
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Thats part of his statement, how many people are testifying against him who don't have charges against themselves, I honestly don't know, but would be interested to know.

From the sounds of it the group going after him are cowboys, nothing more or less, a personal vendetta or an organisation looking for a big scalp because the cowboy in charge wants some media attention. The whole thing reeks, I've taken those statements at face value, a group claims to have the authority to strip someone of their titles, but infact clearly doesn't. Changes how they determine someone is positive on a whim, insist there is one set of rules but changes them as and when they want to go after a specific target, and lets known dopers race as long as they testify against who they want them too all sounds beyond a joke.

Maybe he cheated, maybe not, but the fact that the USADA are so incredibly unprofessional and unbelievable makes their particular case sound ridiculous.

Cycling is a joke, the number of cheats who have been stripped of titles at a later date is nothing short of laughable, but until the international organisations that actually do have the authority clamp down and don't let anyone ever caught cheating ever race again, people will do it knowing even if they get caught, they've made loads of money and can continue in a couple years again.
 
iamtheoneneo said:
meh bad stuff, There is no way he should have his titles stripped, doped or not he still earned the right to have those wins and hes still a massive athlete.
but congrats to Armstrong for telling them to shove it, the whole process has been completely unfair and makes an enitre mockery of the doping testing.
100s if not thousands of tests that man has had - all of them clean , yet a few snitches is all it takes to bring someone down with zero evidence , these people must be so proud of themselves.
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While doping doesn't negate the need for hard work to achieve a result it is still cheating so when you say he has the right to those wins in what sense do you mean? If he did cheat to win then what punishment should he face, other athletes who have been found guilty of doping offences have had their titles stripped and been banned from competition - there's no point banning him from competition now but what makes him different in that he shouldn't have his titles stripped?

When you say zero evidence you appear to be discounting testimony as evidence, I'm not convinced that this is a supportable position. Criminal courts use witness testimony as evidence and the standard there is much higher than in civil cases or indeed in almost all independent investigations. Witness testimony can be unreliable and it should ideally be supported by other evidence but when there are a number of witnesses who corroborate each others stories then it becomes a much more compelling tale than otherwise.

Nexus said:
As I've said before, I really hope he isn't found to be a doper, as he is such a legend. I also think to find him as such and strip all his titles wouldn't be doing the sport any favours either.
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Do you think that because he is a legend that he should be exempt from the normal punishments or am I misreading?

If the sport lives or dies based on whether Lance Armstrong is found guilty then it's arguably not worth saving in the first place.
 
Seeing as the other thread wasn't merged -.-

However, Armstrong has disputed that USADA has the power to take away his titles. "USADA lacks jurisdiction even to bring these charges," his statement said.

The cycling governing body the International Cycling Union (UCI) - which had backed Armstrong's attempt to challenge USADA's authority - has so far made no public comments on the latest developments.
This is what interest me more so...
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I don't know, I think it's interesting, they got ten people to testify against him, but he claims they've been bribed etc... So that's not unlikely.

The tour has had a well-publicised issue with doping in the past, Wiggo has talked a lot about how doping discouraged him previously against the tour.

He passed all the tests at the time, so they can't really prove it. Bottom line is they can get anyone to testify, they don't have blood/urine samples etc... Which can prove it.

But yeah, personally I was more intrigued by the idea that the UCI says the USADA support Armstrong and say they don't have the power to strip him of his titles.

kd
 
Nexus said:
I'm not really sure what to think now.

A lot of independent commentators are saying that by giving up, it could be seen that this is something of an admission that there is some degree of guilt. With so many X-Teammates also lined up to testify against him, its not good either.

.
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i'd probably give up too, out of purely not being able to give a stuff anymore.

the bloke won the TDF 7 times and battled cancer! i don't think he would have the reasons to dope himself to win so many times with his ongoing battle and would probably have admitted to doping himself before now, had he been cheating.

he probably got tested more than any other athlete.
 
[DOD]Asprilla;22628806 said:
So I understand, but it's not a proven adopted test yet.
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It is proven we have used it for years to test the efficacy of auto-tranfusions. Whether they want to take it up or not as an anti-doping measure is their business. I was merely pointing out we can test for it and it's something that we do all the time to see how we are doing say with Jehova's Witnesses before/after big surgery.

As to the main topic at hand though if he has done wrong the titles need to go. Witness testimony is good enough for a criminal trial it's good enough here.
 
[DOD]Asprilla;22628113 said:
http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/armstrong1150px.jpg
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That link doesn't really help Lance's case. The fact that a bunch of guys from the top 10 were tested positive over seven successive years, apart from the winner, seems kind of fishy. Obviously that wasn't the point of you posting the link, as I agree: you'd have to go well down the field for most of those years before finding someone else who didn't use, which seems ludicrous (as low as 8th place in the year of Lance's first title!).
 
Xordium said:
It is proven we have used it for years to test the efficacy of auto-tranfusions. Whether they want to take it up or not as an anti-doping measure is their business. I was merely pointing out we can test for it and it's something that we do all the time to see how we are doing say with Jehova's Witnesses before/after big surgery.

As to the main topic at hand though if he has done wrong the titles need to go. Witness testimony is good enough for a criminal trial it's good enough here.
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Witness evidence can be - validly - called into question where a witness is receiving an inducement of some kind, or where the witness has an axe to grind.

But Lance would have the opportunity to challenge these witness statements, should he have continued. By not doing so, it he making a tacit admission?

I don't know. As far as I am concerned, the whole thing stinks. IT would be better for cycling to move on and enjoy the fact that notionally clean athletes are doing so well currently.
 
oli collett said:
So you think Lance Armstrong, a man not exactly known for quitting, would just give up this fight and concede defeat?

I don't think so.

The idea that he never tested positive so he wasn't a doper is ridiculous. Loads of those riders from his generation never tested positive but either later admitted it or were involved implicated in Puerto/Festina.

I don't agree with stripping his titles though. You would probably have to go outside of the top 5 of the tour to give those titles to another rider who was clean.
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yes i do, hes fought his name for over 15 years, just because hes now said no more means jack ****e he spent 15 years defending himself

like he says where does it all end? theres a massive witchhunt against him
 
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