Lance Armstrong charges
- Thread starter fozzybear
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Man of Honour
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I can't find it in myself to be so dismissive of witness testimony as not "real evidence" - it's perfectly acceptable in criminal trials to have witness testimony and while it can be unreliable and imperfect it it still enough to help decide cases where the implications are much more serious than possibly losing some titles or being fined.
If he's not guilty then great, it's nice to believe that there are some people who are just that damn good they're almost superhuman in their efforts but if he has cheated to achieve these results then I'd like to see him face the consequences of that.
The UCI might not be keen on having the sport dragged through the mud again but sometimes you've got to strip it back to bare metal so to speak before you can rebuild it. That might well be painful for the sport but it's a necessary part of the process, if not then it's tacitly condoning cheating provided you can keep it secret for a sufficient period of time. Lance Armstrong may not have done anything wrong but there's a case to answer.
Unpatriotic? Don't USADA have a duty towards ensuring that the sports they have any control over are clean? Or should it be that it doesn't matter what someone does provided they're from your country?
Even if they didn't win the TdF that doesn't necessarily make them sore losers, that might not even have been something they harboured as a realistic ambition. However they might well think it's morally wrong for someone to benefit and continue benefitting from cheating if that's what he has done.
I don't agree with desires point as you'll see above but by implication if they're not Lance Armstrong and they competed in the TdF during the years he won it then they're losers. Bit of a semantic point though.
IF he has been doping, as the USADA claims, then he should absolutely be stripped of his titles.
However at this stage I am entirely unconvinced that this is the case. I hope that this goes through to a genuine tribunal at an undeniably unbiased institution (...or as close to such a thing as exists), with all evidence presented and a genuine chance for rebuttal. I think it's important to get to the bottom of the matter one way or the other - not just for Lance Armstrong or even just for cycling, but for sport in general.
It's often quoted that he is the most drug-tested athlete in history. If he HAS been doping, there should be a formal investigation into how he managed to stay undetected for so long. If not, then there should similarly be an investigation into why these charges were brought against him in the first place. We can no-more accept a witch-hunt of athletes at the top of their game than we can accept someone who gets there by cheating.
I think this entire affair is quite saddening.
However at this stage I am entirely unconvinced that this is the case. I hope that this goes through to a genuine tribunal at an undeniably unbiased institution (...or as close to such a thing as exists), with all evidence presented and a genuine chance for rebuttal. I think it's important to get to the bottom of the matter one way or the other - not just for Lance Armstrong or even just for cycling, but for sport in general.
It's often quoted that he is the most drug-tested athlete in history. If he HAS been doping, there should be a formal investigation into how he managed to stay undetected for so long. If not, then there should similarly be an investigation into why these charges were brought against him in the first place. We can no-more accept a witch-hunt of athletes at the top of their game than we can accept someone who gets there by cheating.
I think this entire affair is quite saddening.
A(nother) very sad day for the sport.
I went to watch the Olympic road race and it saddened me to see Vinikourov celebrating victory, there were two people i did not want to see win, Millar was one and he was the other.
All those years watching Lance, cheering him on, marvelling at the determination, spirit and genius of the man.....for this.
I'm finding it hard to believe to be honest, I don't want to believe it.
As I see it his TDF wins would go to the following.....
1999-Nardello (7th)
2000-Beloki (3rd)
2001-Beloki (3rd)
2002-Beloki (2nd)
2003-Zubeldia (5th)
2004-Azevedo (5th)
2005-Evans (8th)
Beloki was banned by his team in 2006 but subsequently cleared.
I went to watch the Olympic road race and it saddened me to see Vinikourov celebrating victory, there were two people i did not want to see win, Millar was one and he was the other.
All those years watching Lance, cheering him on, marvelling at the determination, spirit and genius of the man.....for this.
I'm finding it hard to believe to be honest, I don't want to believe it.
As I see it his TDF wins would go to the following.....
1999-Nardello (7th)
2000-Beloki (3rd)
2001-Beloki (3rd)
2002-Beloki (2nd)
2003-Zubeldia (5th)
2004-Azevedo (5th)
2005-Evans (8th)
Beloki was banned by his team in 2006 but subsequently cleared.
It would be so stupid doing this, they didn't win the tour regardless of drugs cheats. Could you take any pride in winning a tour 13 years later being upgraded from 7th to 1st. It should be a no result if anything although I believe Lance is innocent myself.
I find it staggering that there are still people who believe in the lance armstrong hype machine. This isn't some trumped up investigation with weak evidence. They have 10 former team-mates testifying against him. 10! The only reason he is not contesting the charges, is because he knows he will lose, simple as that. He is a cheat, and I'm glad he's finally been found out. (although it's a shame he's made 100's of millions of dollars beforehand 
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I find it staggering that there are still people who believe in the lance armstrong hype machine. This isn't some trumped up investigation with weak evidence. They have 10 former team-mates testifying against him. 10! The only reason he is not contesting the charges, is because he knows he will lose, simple as that. He is a cheat, and I'm glad he's finally been found out. (although it's a shame he's made 100's of millions of dollars beforehand
Sounds from that that their entire case is hes said she said, hearsay and conjecture. Well that sounds a lot more solid than all the anti drug/doping tests he passed over the past decade+
Having looked through this thread I have found it difficult to find an unbiased view. a lot of people who have posted on here have been Armstrong fans and that has clouded their overall judgement.
Those who have used his history of clean drug/doping tests to reinforce their opinion should look at the history of Marion Jones.
Those who have used his history of clean drug/doping tests to reinforce their opinion should look at the history of Marion Jones.
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Soldato
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Sounds from that that their entire case is hes said she said, hearsay and conjecture. Well that sounds a lot more solid than all the anti drug/doping tests he passed over the past decade+
Hearsay and conjecture would imply that the witnesses were repeating rumour and giving opinions when they are actually saying they saw, took part in and were aided by LA in systematic doping.
You know we convict people of murder and rape based solely such evidence, don't you?
Sounds from that that their entire case is hes said she said, hearsay and conjecture. Well that sounds a lot more solid than all the anti drug/doping tests he passed over the past decade+
As said above, it is not 'hearsay' and 'conjecture', these are first hand witness statements.
Soldato
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Beloki is hardly an unknown.... even more so for that incident in the Tour when Lance took to the grass for a bit of mountain biking. In fact he was having a great race that year and was in with a good chance until he broke his leg.
Soldato
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The Marion case is quite bad and it was good to see that she finally admitted to it. That is something that I don't think we will ever see Lance do as he is quite an arrogant character. I wouldn't expect him to ever admit he has ever been wrong.
Soldato
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Are you saying that witnesses should no longer be used in court?
The whole outcome of this affair really irks me. Lance Armstrong is being found guilty on the evidence of 10 other athletes (rivals-because that's what they were) views that they saw Armstrong use illegal substances....
USADA and/or other governing bodies have never found one, not one drug test that contained an illegal substance in all the years Lance Armstrong had been racing, yet he's now guilty as charged. I find this ridiculous.
The people/athletes that are 'claiming' he cheated were mostly his competitors, right...Jealousy, grudges, bitterness, fall-outs & general dislike. All the above describe some of the reasons as to why you cannot trust these guys, some of which are cheats themselves and will have wanted Armstrong dragged down with them, yet on the words of ten individuals the governing body/courts find him guilty, comical.
Don't you have to ask if the USADA have another motive going on here, i for one don't trust there credibility over all of this.
Aside from all the above, whether Lance Armstrong really is guilty or not, you have to respect the man for what he's done. People seem to be forgetting the Lance and his team have raised nearly 500 million to help fight cancer, that is an amazing feet and easily his greatest achievement.
The real shame in all of this is a man who has done so much will be remember by many as a cheat, regardless of whether he actually guilty or not.
USADA and/or other governing bodies have never found one, not one drug test that contained an illegal substance in all the years Lance Armstrong had been racing, yet he's now guilty as charged. I find this ridiculous.
The people/athletes that are 'claiming' he cheated were mostly his competitors, right...Jealousy, grudges, bitterness, fall-outs & general dislike. All the above describe some of the reasons as to why you cannot trust these guys, some of which are cheats themselves and will have wanted Armstrong dragged down with them, yet on the words of ten individuals the governing body/courts find him guilty, comical.
Don't you have to ask if the USADA have another motive going on here, i for one don't trust there credibility over all of this.
Aside from all the above, whether Lance Armstrong really is guilty or not, you have to respect the man for what he's done. People seem to be forgetting the Lance and his team have raised nearly 500 million to help fight cancer, that is an amazing feet and easily his greatest achievement.
The real shame in all of this is a man who has done so much will be remember by many as a cheat, regardless of whether he actually guilty or not.
Yes...as i said bitter, jealous, fallen out you could find many reasons as to why they would like to bring Lance down.
Do you actually have any sources or are you just talking rubbish?
How is it talking rubbish...It might be rubbish to you, if so just move along. I think there are many reasons as to why his teams mates would want to frame him. I certainly wouldn't trust any of them over a drugs test which is 99% accurate.