Why is the UK not religious anymore?

[ringo747]

If true, where did God come from?

The logic that "things don't just come from nothing" is often used by theists to support their 'creator' argument but whilst it may 'solve' complex astrophysical questions in their head, surely they must then ask "who created the creator"?

Same goes with your other arguments about a nice looking car requiring a designer, then surely something as powerful and amazing as a God in turn needed a 'designer' to make them that way no?

But the theist has an answer to this conundrum, God just 'always' existed, forever, thus negating the need for a creator of the creator. But tell them about that the infinite time theory and that matter may just have always existed for infinity and suddenly you're the one being silly and illogical.

Theists want to use basic logic and 'in the box' thinking when trying to disprove the scientific consensus on the origins of the Universe, but then want to use the metaphysical and magical claims about their 'God'.

Theists use the premise that anything that begins to exist has a cause. Science gives us good reason to believe that the universe had a beginning. Using our first premise we can say 'therefore the universe had a cause'.

We are not claiming that God was ever created. An eternal being who transcends time and space is not limited by the same boundaries as we are.

 

[FARGO]

Ringo - with the greatest of respect do you mind if I ask if you believe that you have a purpose in life? If so, how does it relate to your God? Please don't think I'm stoking the fire, I'm genuinely curious

 

[InKursion]

The multiple universes theory is another common one but even if we had observed multiple universes then there still would have to be the question of 'where did the universe generator come from'. Things just don't come into existence uncaused.

That's a pretty old (i.e. practically Aristotelean) defense for God, though. 'The unmoved Mover'; if everything is moving away from a point, there must have been something to start the chain, etc. I'm not quite convinced that the cause behind all that has to be anything grandly spiritual, let alone this whole benevolent God-figure thing. This sort of reading-the-divine style of argumentation is also seen in St. Anselm's ontological argument, and in many other quasi-metaphysical shenanigans that basically bestow the supernatural and spiritual (i.e. constructs and conditions of human psychology) on naturally occurring phenomena. Not to mention that in a post-Wittgenstein era (particularly relevant to the UK's beliefs), we tend to see many clever scholastic arguments and defenses as mere language-games, rather than any serious proof.

 

[Morbius]

Theists use the premise that anything that begins to exist has a cause.

There are counterexamples to this premise, such as the creation of virtual particle-antiparticle pairs.

 

[ringo747]

I do believe in a purpose for life and that is to enjoy life and a relationship with God.

If God doesn't exist then the alternative is that we are just here as an accident, have a meaningless existence for a very short time and all we have to look forward to is death.

 

[ringo747]

I'm not quite convinced that the cause behind all that has to be anything grandly spiritual, let alone this whole benevolent God-figure thing.

I agree that you don't even have to use the word God in the intelligent design v chance debate. Call it an agent if you will.

I believe that design by an agent is far more probably than the cause of the universe being chance. Without the mention of the 'G' word maybe that is more palatable for our atheistic friends.

 

[ringo747]

There are counterexamples to this premise, such as the creation of virtual particle-antiparticle pairs.

No idea what this means. Are you saying these guys can come from nothing uncaused?

 

[FARGO]

I do believe in a purpose for life and that is to enjoy life and a relationship with God.

If God doesn't exist then the alternative is that we are just here as an accident, have a meaningless existence for a very short time and all we have to look forward to is death.

Thanks for the answer!

Could one not accept that life is short but still enjoy the existence which we do have, despite there not being a meaning?

 

[estebanrey]

Theists use the premise that anything that begins to exist has a cause. Science gives us good reason to believe that the universe had a beginning. Using our first premise we can say 'therefore the universe had a cause'.

That is a very inaccurate summary of what science says or believes about the origins of the universe.

Firstly nothing says there has to be a 'cause' (certainly not in the way you are using the word cause anyway) and whilst scientist believe our current universe 'started' with the Big Bang there is genuine scientific theory that the matter just always existed, for an infinite amount of time.

We are not claiming that God was ever created. An eternal being who transcends time and space is not limited by the same boundaries as we are.

How convenient.

P.S. Are you Jonathan From Arizona by any chance?

 

[ringo747]

Thanks for the answer!

Could one not accept that life is short but still enjoy the existence which we do have, despite there not being a meaning?

Yeah I'm sure many try that but at the end of the day life would just be a big accident.

 

[Morbius]

No idea what this means. Are you saying these guys can come from nothing uncaused?

Yes. This even happens in a vacuum.

If God doesn't exist then the alternative is that we are just here as an accident, have a meaningless existence for a very short time and all we have to look forward to is death.

I think you're missing out all the good things in life if you think like that.

 

[Squark]

False hope is false. Better to live the life you know you have, than sit around expecting everything to get better when you die. Not to mention all the despicable atrocities that human history has been littered with, so many of which were done in the name of some God or other.

I don't just sit around waiting to die so that things will get better. That's a ridiculous thing to say.

If anything, Christianity encouraged people to live a better life now that you might otherwise.

Though I wont argue that truly awful things have been done in the name of God over the centuries, even though they clearly don't line up with what God wants (in the Bible anyway).

 

[InKursion]

I agree that you don't even have to use the word God in the intelligent design v chance debate. Call it an agent if you will.

I believe that design by an agent is far more probably than the cause of the universe being chance. Without the mention of the 'G' word maybe that is more palatable for our atheistic friends.

I wouldn't even call it an 'agent' - that's anthropomorphising too much. Agency as a philosophical concept means a person's ability to effect change. When it comes to the 'original cause' of the Universe, I don't think agency even comes into it. Agency and agents and these sort of conceptual abstractions are things we have invented to help us make sense of our own place in the chaos.

 

[InKursion]

I do believe in a purpose for life and that is to enjoy life and a relationship with God.

If God doesn't exist then the alternative is that we are just here as an accident, have a meaningless existence for a very short time and all we have to look forward to is death.

That's not really true. 200 years of human philosophy and artistic creation have had a riotously good time of finding meaning and cause for optimism (as much as pessimism) in the 'existentialist' crises of secularism and a Godless universe. You seem to be someone that enjoys a certain amount of determinism and/or fatalism - having some parts of your life and its meaning taken out of your hands. Others revile that. To say that life is "meaningless" and "all we have to look forward to is death" is quite the egregious statement. Would you not look forward to having kids, seeing the world, or having a fulfilling career if you didn't think there was a bearded man in a robe watching the whole thing? That seems quite silly. Why do you need the promise of an eternity of angels and singing choirboys to help you enjoy the 75 or so years you have here, now? That seems like a terrible anxiety, preventing you from enjoying the eternal present.

 

[FARGO]

Yeah I'm sure many try that but at the end of the day life would just be a big accident.

Is the meaning of life bit the bit when people ascend to heaven for eternity? What happens there/then?

 

[Lightnix]

I do believe in a purpose for life and that is to enjoy life and a relationship with God.

If God doesn't exist then the alternative is that we are just here as an accident, have a meaningless existence for a very short time and all we have to look forward to is death.

I can never understand this line of thinking. How is being the will of one being who could create you in the blink of any eye any more special than being the will of thousands - millions even - of creatures all of whom endured great difficulties, hardships and in many cases outright agony in order to produce you? I hate to put it like this but how ungrateful do you have to be to say that without a God life is meaningless?

Life by itself is wonderful and valuable - it's a great tool, it allows you to experience a great many things; to love and to learn; to influence and to help others. Is that not enough? Sure you can always strive to have more - but what we have is pretty great. Do not imply life is meaningless, or pointless. It is finite, it can be hard, it is a great number of things but it is not meaningless.

 

[estebanrey]

I
I believe that design by an agent is far more probably than the cause of the universe being chance. Without the mention of the 'G' word maybe that is more palatable for our atheistic friends.

Why is it 'far more probable'? Clearly you are not a scientist and know nothing about cosmology or astro-physics so you are just making your mind up based on 'common thinking'. If this whole ideology of yours is based simply on the watchmaker analogy I'd seriously ask you to think again.

Also, no one believes the creation of the Universe came about by 'chance', well not in the sense that chance can mean something may or may not happen. If I were to predict that it will rain at some point in the next 360 days where I live, would you call that 'chance' when I was proved right?

 

[ringo747]

That is a very inaccurate summary of what science says or believes about the origins of the universe.

Firstly nothing says there has to be a 'cause' (certainly not in the way you are using the word cause anyway) and whilst scientist believe our current universe 'started' with the Big Bang there is genuine scientific theory that the matter just always existed, for an infinite amount of time.

What exactly is inaccurate?

Ok, so let's take a step back then. From nothing where did your matter come from? Science has shown that the universe is constantly expanding therefore by reason it must have had a single point of origin.

So you say that there doesn't have to be a cause. Why is it that we don't see things popping up around us every day uncaused?

I have trouble with your phrase 'an infinite amount of time'. At which point do you think time began?

How convenient.

Nothing to do with convenience. It is logical to me that if the universe was designed then the designer can't be bound by it's constraints.

 

[RDM]

Have you ever looked into Darwins Tree of life illustration and how it lines up against the fossil record? Darwin himself acknowledged that major groups of animals appear suddenly in the fossil record. His theory of a gradual modification from a common ancestor, with the differences gradually increasing are not in line with the rapid appearances of phyla in the fossil records.

That was Darwin's Origin of Species, which was one of the founding principles of evolution, an awful lot of information and research has done since that fills in an awful lot of the gaps. The "gradual" thing is pretty much disproved now, evolution can be really slow but it can also occur very quickly (relatively obviously) it doesn't occur at a set rate. Evolution is pretty much the only current scientific theory that fits all the evidence. Intelligent Design doesn't because it isn't a scientific theory. Bearing in mind that "theory" has a very specific meaning when used in science.

There are no holes in evolution, there are certainly holes in the fossil record but that isn't a surprise. Evolution has been observed to occur and can be proven in a multitude of ways outside of the fossil record.

Another area of concern is around the drawings of embryos by Haeckel that supposedly don't mirror reality.

Not really a surprise considering they are over 100 years old and medical science has come a long way since then. They are not really considered part of evolution today.

I'm surprised that people haven't heard of a moving away from the Darwinian theories which includes many top professionals from various walks of science. Despite the reservations all this stuff is still taught in schools and it isn't a surprise that people generally take it at face value.

Probably because the theory was built on and expounded since it was first published over 100 years ago. Darwin was still broadly correct however. Much like the theory of plate techtonics we have today isn't exactly the same as when it was first proposed. Science changes to fit the available evidience. There is currently no evidence to suggest that evolution is incorrect.

Personally I don't believe that the universe is eternal and many atheists don't deny that either. Scientific models built around Einsteins general relativity theory suggested a constantly expanding universe. If it is continually expanding then it must have had an initial single point of origin.

Our understanding of the universe is still in it's infancy. We have no real idea what happened before the big bang. For all we know ours could be one of numerous universes that have come and gone. Putting God into the mix changes nothing because you would still need to explain where God came from. An ever present God or an ever present Universe it is still effectively the same question just a different subject. I find it odd that you feel it important to question the universe yet are prepared to give god a free ride.

 

[ringo747]

Yes. This even happens in a vacuum.

Ok, so do they just come about by chance? Is there any particular conditions that need to be set for this to happen?

I think you're missing out all the good things in life if you think like that.

How absurd! Name me a few good things that you think I am missing in life... this will be interesting.