Will God accept you if you renounce religion?

Or perhaps trying to read more into the passages in the bible is the mistake.

What if the text was written at face value and means exactly what is written, and doesn't have some alternative abstract meanings?

Because I can tell you with some authority that the bible you read from in church or the one on your bookshelf is not the same as the original collection of texts or even the extent texts and has gone through significant translations, interpretations and transliterations, there are several methodologies and scientific processes that are applied to the texts and how they relate to other examples, such as the Septuagint, Vulgate and Pentateuch, across several languages such as Koine Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Latin to name the main ones. In some of these languages, concepts such a homosexuality were not defined (there is no demarkation in Greek for a homosexual or heterosexual for example) so it requires significant analysis to determine what the author was referring to and within which contextual bracket. The example I used above is a relatively simple example, the term that is cause for the constant of violence is Sword...in the Septuagint this is written as Gladium(us), however in the Book of Kells and in some textual fragments of earlier codices such as those regarded as the Vetus Latina we see the word transliterated not as Gladium, but as Gaudium, which changes that word from Sword, to Joy...which changes the entire nature of the text particularly if you are going to simply judge the specific passage rather than the whole.

It is not about the abstract, it is about the correct interpretation and translation of the texts themselves. I leave the message to the churchmen.
 
No, because they are simply biblical quotation, or paraphrases of them, it takes no account of the critical interpretation or translation of the texts themselves, how they relate both contextually, historically and grammatically. For a very simple and common example, the penultimate reference to Matthew 10:34 is not necessarily referring to physical violence, (in fact according to one school of Hermeneutics there is a mis-translation as evidenced in The Book of Kells that suggests it is not mentioning violence at all) but to division of ideology and is in fact referencing conflict of belief and the challenges the disciples faced rather than advocating physical violence.

Easy to quote a bible passage, a little more challenging to interpret it correctly and rationally however, as I am sure you appreciate, if not now, then in time.
No, I do appreciate. ;) However, there are some passages that I would argue simply cannot be read figuratively. What does Proverbs 13:24 mean?

"Whoever spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him."

There's nothing in chapter thirteen, nor the rest of Proverbs, to suggest that it means anything other than the father that does not beat his son, is showing contempt for him as it is tantamount to neglect.

EDIT: God damn bald emoticons.
 
Last edited:
Because I can tell you with some authority that the bible you read from in church or the one on your bookshelf is not the same as the original collection of texts or even the extent texts and has gone through significant translations, interpretations and transliterations, there are several methodologies and scientific processes that are applied to the texts and how they relate to other examples, such as the Septuagint, Vulgate and Pentateuch, across several languages such as Koine Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Latin to name the main ones. In some of these languages, concepts such a homosexuality were not defined (there is no demarkation in Greek for a homosexual or heterosexual for example) so it requires significant analysis to determine what the author was referring to and within which contextual bracket. The example I used above is a relatively simple example, the term that is cause for the constant of violence is Sword...in the Septuagint this is written as Gladium(us), however in the Book of Kells and in some textual fragments of earlier codices such as those regarded as the Vetus Latina we see the word transliterated not as Gladium, but as Gaudium, which changes that word from Sword, to Joy...which changes the entire nature of the text particularly if you are going to simply judge the specific passage rather than the whole.

It is not about the abstract, it is about the correct interpretation and translation of the texts themselves. I leave the message to the churchmen.

So judging by the complexity of the translations, given what you are saying there is every chance that the true meanings were actually originally more disgusting then what has been interpreted and translated?

Seems to me your eager to portray the texts in a more positive light then what the bible reads, however by your own admission the translations are complex and could just as easily have actually had more brutal or strange meanings then the translations.
 
Last edited:
It's no different to when scientists explain something to the general population in layman terms to give a mental picture and then say "but this is not what we actually believe".
 
It's no different to when scientists explain something to the general population in layman terms to give a mental picture and then say "but this is not what we actually believe".
... :o

The difference is that the data is available today, for anyone that wants to take a look. Scientists can argue about what to make of it, but the world is still here to be probed. The Gospels, for example, are anonymously written (we don't know who wrote them), and started being written at least two generations after the Resurrection (this is a long time ago). We don't have the original of Matthew, or of any book in either Testament. In any case, the earliest manuscripts we have were written centuries after the originals, and they were copies of copies of copies. This wouldn't be a problem if there weren't so many people that treat the Bible as 'the word of God', or as an inerrant document.

Silly comparison. :p
 
So judging by the complexity of the translations, given what you are saying there is every chance that the true meanings were actually originally more disgusting then what has been interpreted and translated?

Seems to me your eager to portray the texts in a more positive light then what the bible reads, however by your own admission the translations are complex and could just as easily have actually had more brutal or strange meanings then the translations.

Ok, to begin with linguistics and translation is the scientific study of languages and along with the historical-critical method of critical theory and several other methodologies we can objectively and without bias determine the most likely (and remember this is a scientific study, not a theological one) interpretation of the text as if it is any other text.

You will find that more conservative and literal advocates, will use the historical-grammatical method, which is determining the meaning of the text but only in relation to biblical interpretation. Therefore it take a literal position, which Academics reject as it is theological in nature rather than scientific.
 
No, I do appreciate. ;) However, there are some passages that I would argue simply cannot be read figuratively. What does Proverbs 13:24 mean?

"Whoever spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him."

There's nothing in chapter thirteen, nor the rest of Proverbs, to suggest that it means anything other than the father that does not beat his son, is showing contempt for him as it is tantamount to neglect.

EDIT: God damn bald emoticons.


Some basic hermeneutics...., the passage should be determined in an historical-critical way, in other words the interpretations should be subject to critique based on what we know of the historical and cultural period in which they were made, these origins, along with a linguistic analysis and so on would determine the meaning of the original author. In the example of proverbs, which are commonly metaphorical, they are tasked with simply expressing a fundamental or practical truth...'whoever spares the Rod hates his Son, but he who loves him is diligent to disipline him' is an example of this.

It doesn't mean literally go around kicking seven bells out of your children, but it does mean that you should disipline them when necessary (if we look at it using the methodology and therefore in context of the time in which it was written, corporal punishment was commonplace and an accepted form of discipline, smacking still is for many people), to simply not discipline your children, to not teach them right from wrong, is to neglect your responsibility as a Parent. It uses common expressions of discipline at the time to convey the fundamental truth that discipline is important in raising children...not that you should literally beat your children with a rod.

The mistake you made is in critiquing the passage according to the cultural and prevailing attitudes of today, and not the historical period in which they were made.

There is a term for those who study proverbs and their meaning called paremiology. :)
 
Last edited:
Naffa, what good parent doesn't discipline their child? Look around you and you will see what happens when kids are not disciplined. Adults who think they deserve everything. Discipline, though not pleasant at the time, reaps great rewards.
 
Ok, to begin with linguistics and translation is the scientific study of languages and along with the historical-critical method of critical theory and several other methodologies we can objectively and without bias determine the most likely (and remember this is a scientific study, not a theological one) interpretation of the text as if it is any other text.

You will find that more conservative and literal advocates, will use the historical-grammatical method, which is determining the meaning of the text but only in relation to biblical interpretation. Therefore it take a literal position, which Academics reject as it is theological in nature rather than scientific.

Why is the true text not put in a book and labelled the new correct bible or something? Seems crazy that we can now give Christians the real book but they still worship the old incorrect one?

It's a little jarring to me that countless number of Christians have been worshipping an incorrect book for hundreds of years.

Wars have been fought, blood has been spilt and countless other events have happened over some dodgy translation of a few stories?

I doubt there will ever be more costly mistranslations for the rest of humanity. :p
 
The mistake you made is in critiquing the passage according to the cultural and prevailing attitudes of today, and not the historical period in which they were made.
Well, as I said in the other thread, I'm not a moral subjectivist, thus, morality doesn't change from period to period, society to society. I will criticise an immoral action, regardless of when it took place. Also, the fact that so many people do think that these passages are inspired by the divine leads them to believe that they are lessons that are to be followed, even today (meaning that this critique needs to be made).

Naffa, what good parent doesn't discipline their child? Look around you and you will see what happens when kids are not disciplined. Adults who think they deserve everything. Discipline, though not pleasant at the time, reaps great reawards.
I hope that you do spare your children the rod.
 
Last edited:
Why is the true text not put in a book and labelled the new correct bible or something? Seems crazy that we can now give Christians the real book but they still worship the old incorrect one?

It's a little jarring to me that countless number of Christians have been worshipping an incorrect book for hundreds of years.

Wars have been fought, blood has been spilt and countless other events have happened over some dodgy translation of a few stories?

I doubt there will ever be more costly mistranslations for the rest of humanity. :p


Oh trust me, there are a vast array of interpretations that many religions, denominations and sects deem heretical. I bump heads with the denominational theologians in our our team consistently over interpretation and exegesis of texts.

Also it is important to remember that the bible is not the Qur'an, it isn't meant to be a literal dictated expression of Gods words..it is a guide to Christian faith, and you only have to look in a library to see that there are a vast array of interpretative translations available. However, with advances in linguistics and the methods of determining meaning the most modern Bibles are becoming more accurate, particularly with the discovery of the Qumran tests and advances in understanding historical, archaelogical and anthropological markers in determining our analyses.
 
Well, as I said in the other thread, I'm not a moral subjectivist, thus, morality doesn't change from period to period, society to society. I will criticise an immoral action, regardless of when it took place. Also, the fact that so many people do think that these passages are inspired by the divine leads them to believe that they are lessons that are to be followed, even today (meaning that this critique needs to be made).

I hope you realise what a proverb is though Naffa. If you want to take them word for word literally then that is your choice, it isn't going to be accepted academically or linguistically however. 'a bird in the hand, is woth two in the bush' for example is a proverb...it's not literal, it is an expression of a truth.

And regardless of your particular morality, scientifically you need to determine the historical basis before you can determine the context, in any case even in today's morality, discipline is not immoral.
 
Last edited:
Also it is important to remember that the bible is not the Qur'an, it isn't meant to be a literal dictated expression of Gods words..it is a guide to Christian faith, and you only have to look in a library to see that there are a vast array of interpretative translations available. However, with advances in linguistics and the methods of determining meaning the most modern Bibles are becoming more accurate, particularly with the discovery of the Qumran tests and advances in understanding historical, archaelogical and anthropological markers in determining our analyses.
What's the earliest Greek Christian manuscript discovered, thus far? (Genuine question).

This is why I have such a problem with religion being seen as a way of knowing the will of the creator of the universe. I'm waiting to receive Bart Ehrman's book, 'Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew' on just this point. There is simply no way of now knowing what the 'actual' Christianity might have been, if there even was one.
 
Also it is important to remember that the bible is not the Qur'an, it isn't meant to be a literal dictated expression of Gods words..

This is where I get confused, because judging by Jason2's comments I would have said he does take the words of the bible literally.
 
Last edited:
I hope you realise what a proverb is though Naffa. If you want to take them word for word literally then that is your choice, it isn't going to be accepted academically or linguistically however.
Of course I know what a proverb is, why that has an effect on what I said before, I don't know. I take the passage literally, in that I interpret it as I believe it was intended. Why would the word 'rod' be used, if in the next sentence, the word discipline was used?

And regardless of your particular morality, scientifically you need to determine the historical basis before you can determine the context, in any case even in today's morality, discipline is not immoral.
Well, if it was just referring 'discipline', why mention the word 'rod' at all? For confusion? For aesthetic value? For the lulz? Or maybe, when 'Whoever spares the rod hates his son', is actually trying to convey that physical abuse is necessary?
 
Of course I know what a proverb is, why that has an effect on what I said before, I don't know. I take the passage literally, in that I interpret it as I believe it was intended. Why would the word 'rod' be used, if in the next sentence, the word discipline was used?

Well, if it was just referring 'discipline', why mention the word 'rod' at all? For confusion? For aesthetic value? For the lulz?

People smack their children with belts - do you agree that is immoral too, then?
 
This is where I get confused because judging by Jason2's comments I would have said he does take the words of the bible literally.

He may well do so, Biblical Literalism is an approach that uses the Historical-Grammatical method I refered to earlier, it basically does what Naffa is doing, and that is interprets the Bible (although not even the most vehement fundamentalist would do this with proverbs) explicitly by the words themselves as being the words of God. Although they still accept the use of metaphor, parables, allegory and so on, however only when it is explicit to the text itself...such as a parable or a proverb.

I have asked Jason2 several times which denomonation he is so I can determine his approach, but he consistantly ignores the request, which infers he may be one of the more evangelical or millennialist of the Christian denominations.
 
He may well do so, Biblical Literalism is an approach that uses the Historical-Grammatical method I refered to earlier, it basically does what Naffa is doing, and that is interprets the Bible (although not even the most vehement fundamentalist would do this with proverbs) explicitly by the words themselves as being the words of God.
Lol... I would love for you to show me where I have done that.

Bearing in mind that barely hours ago, I posted something pretty much showing that I think the exact opposite of what you have just insinuated. :)
 
Back
Top Bottom