have to disagree, if you want to be looked after by the system you need to be responsible and contribute wehre possible, the contribution made by some and what is taken my others is totally wrong, some people do need help and they should get it but many just see it as an easy life, this needs to stop
Poll: Benefit cap vote.
- Thread starter Danthus
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have to disagree, if you want to be looked after by the system you need to be responsible and contribute wehre possible, the contribution made by some and what is taken my others is totally wrong, some people do need help and they should get it but many just see it as an easy life, this needs to stop
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The benefits system needs to be fixed but the benefits issue is way too over blown. To me this has been blown up over the last year and a half to try and portray the poor as the people who sank the country. In effect a smoke screen to hide the obscenely rich especially in the banking sector who caused the financial crisis.
Which is why the emphasis should be on means testing, benefit fraud and getting people into work and training. Not systematically reducing benefits to everyone, as that simply ignores the real cost, both in monetary and human terms.
I believe the term '**** rolls downhill' applies here. Those at the bottom will always be screwed the hardest.
Until the most critical know what it's like to be rock bottom they'll never be able to fully comprehend what it's like.
You could have a system of both.
Without working out national finances, why can't we give the career unemployed hostel like conditions with basic food served or a coupon based system? Just enough so we're not leaving them to die on the street, but no where near enough so that it seems better than not working.
Then, you can give people with a tax paying history a break. Been working for the last 10 years and reasonably and unexpectedly lose your job? Thats OK, we'll help you maintain a resonable lifestyle for a while until you get another job, which we know you'll do based on your history.
Course there should be an upper limit on this, you shouldn't expect to live your millionaire lifestyle on the state after you've spent all your money on coke and hookers and you shouldn't expect the state to help if you're not in a position to need it.
Exceptions to be quickly made for anyone with a handicapped on a means tested system rated on just how exactly unable to work you are. Honestly, I think it's a lot easier to be fair by igoring the need for benefits to be flat.
Everyone should be able to understand both "I'm all for welfare for those who need and deserve it" & "I'm against people choosing a life where the burdern the rest of us". They're both extremely valid points at the end of the day.
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I voted freeze benefits.
How on earth can it be justified that public sector workers have had 2+ years on zero take home pay increase (let's be clear, real term pay cut with inflation) and with the foreseeable future being 1% rises, still a real term pay cut with inflation currently double that.... And benefit claimants get a rise. No chance.
For us to all be in this together, we _all_ have to be in this together.
There is a poisoned view that anyone on benefits in a council house is a dirty scally on 40k a year benefits for asthma and a bad back, with a 60" plasma, full sky package, smoking and drinking all day.
I don't believe that is true. I would be amazed if it was 20% of cases, but our benefits system needs radical reform.
Benefits, other than disability, should be a short term help, same as social housing. Not this live here for life culture. It is a disgrace that people on benefits have 'spare' cash, which, lets be clear is tax payers money, when other families on low incomes work multiple jobs, sharing 1 bed flats and can't afford to buy their children Christmas presents and struggle to put food on the table.
It isn't easy, it doesn't look great in some scenarios, but we have to get people off welfare and out to work. Even if that work is clearing rubbish in parks to earn their benefits.
How on earth can it be justified that public sector workers have had 2+ years on zero take home pay increase (let's be clear, real term pay cut with inflation) and with the foreseeable future being 1% rises, still a real term pay cut with inflation currently double that.... And benefit claimants get a rise. No chance.
For us to all be in this together, we _all_ have to be in this together.
There is a poisoned view that anyone on benefits in a council house is a dirty scally on 40k a year benefits for asthma and a bad back, with a 60" plasma, full sky package, smoking and drinking all day.
I don't believe that is true. I would be amazed if it was 20% of cases, but our benefits system needs radical reform.
Benefits, other than disability, should be a short term help, same as social housing. Not this live here for life culture. It is a disgrace that people on benefits have 'spare' cash, which, lets be clear is tax payers money, when other families on low incomes work multiple jobs, sharing 1 bed flats and can't afford to buy their children Christmas presents and struggle to put food on the table.
It isn't easy, it doesn't look great in some scenarios, but we have to get people off welfare and out to work. Even if that work is clearing rubbish in parks to earn their benefits.
You don't get benefits for asthma. Historically you get it for a bad back or other similar hard to disprove illnesses. These people also wouldn't have been classified as part of the unemployed, which is why theres so much skepticism over the issue and people quoting the unemployment figures are generally ignored. Also, the actual genuinely unemployed don't actually get much in the grand scheme of things.
For me, this is largely a Government educed problem too. If we had frank figures, there'd be no need for skepticism. If we didn't try to bundle up all our poor into ghettos where they can teach each other their tricks and where they'd feel shame because it wouldn't be normal, there'd probably be less of an issue.
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I think my 'humour' at some of the, seemingly minor issues some people manage to blag being off work with might have been missed... But I am convinced that that foul woman off wife swap years ago was on incapacity benefits for severe asthma.... Now I come to think of it, I believe she smoked too...
Isn't welfare one of the biggest outgoings (in the BILLIONS of pounds per year category) that our county has to deal with....?
Based on that, getting it right can't be a bad thing irrespective of those pesky bankers (how much longer are people going to keep coming out with OMG BLAME THE BANKER?)
I got it, but I was just making the point that asthma is something you can probably quantify. You know if a person has it or not, and I suppose if they have an extremely bad case it could probably be somewhat debilitating (though we're still too soft on this kinda stuff).
People genuinally just faking it, which I knew of many, pick from the same tired old excuses such as stress, or a bad back, on the basis that it's hard to disprove and doctors don't want to deal with them, nor do they want to be the person who decides an actual sick person has to work.
On the other hand, my sister has rheumatoid arthritis and my mother has fibromyalgia. Both which I believe is easily quaintifable and both of them live in pain. Neither of them have any hope in getting benefits for it, though if they were diagnosed in labours "boom years", I wouldn't have been surprised if they did. Not saying I think they should get benefits, just that it sucks that so many get away with faking it when they can't even qualify for disabled parking by being honest.
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I have no problem with benefits increasing if people can come up with an effective way of paying for them. I suppose we could do the Labour plan of spending the same savings on four or five different things...
So what would you cut to pay for the increase in benefits?
So what would you cut to pay for the increase in benefits?
Stop giving benefits to people that dont need them.
Rich oaps don't need the fuel allowance, so don't give it to them. Same goes for free travel.
Castiel covered this further up. Trying to type long winded replies on m phone is pita so just read his
Rich oaps don't need the fuel allowance, so don't give it to them. Same goes for free travel.
Castiel covered this further up. Trying to type long winded replies on m phone is pita so just read his
Do you really feel that way? I'd much rather country ran a surplus, or spent the money on national infrastructure to benefit* everyone, or perish the thought, lowered taxes.
*I think everyone would benefit if we still owned the rail & telecoms network. If we didn't frivolously waste our money in the past, we'd probably still would. Not the retail end mind you, we shoulda sold them because we're crap at managing them.
I don't think we need lower taxes, certainly not at the moment. I wouldn't mind higher taxes if I could be assured of a decent service. Sadly my experience of local government services and employees has been terrible so I don't really trust them to spend tax money sensibly.
In reality we need a full reform and rethink of benefits in this country with the first thing to go being tax credits.
I think Government is always going to waste money, but I don't trust commerical companies to be in charge of infrastructure thats essentially a monopoly. Eventually it just turns into rent seeking without a resonable amount of upkeep effort, milking the maximum amount the regulators will allow.
On the other hand where companies can be competive, I think they'll often do a better job than a the Government would, because a Government monopoly has no incentive to compete either.
So for example, an ISP should be able to compete on quality of service and customer support, backhauls / peering. They'll simply never compete in the last mile because they don't have to. The last mile and the exchange should be owned by the Government, everything else should be taken care of by private interests.
As for lower taxes, I dare say they can never be low enough. Taxes are a necessary evil but it's still a giant coperation taking money from people by force and should absolutly be minimised at all times. Obviously now isn't the time, but if we can ever get to a state where we can justfiy the welfare system and yet we still have piles of money left over, we shouldn't start practicing wealth redistribution to the lazy just for the sake of it.
I can't agree more. Child/Tax credits are both stupid (giving with one hand, taking with the other) and grossly unfair (to anyone who makes choices based on what they can afford).
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The only effective, long term solution to the sheer size of the welfare state, is getting people off it and into jobs paying a living wage.
Minimum wage is not a living wage, that is why the government has to top it up, subsidising companies workforce. If these paid better, they wouldn't need working tax credits.
Most people on JSA are actually seeking work too. There are just far more of them then there are jobs available. Especially entry-level jobs, where since there are so many unemployed companies can demand experience even for minimum wage jobs, which is one of the most illogical and (imho) damaging things happening in the job market right now.
I would be happy with benefits rising with inflation, even though I work (private sector) for a living and haven't seen a pay rise in over 7 years now (and the cheeky gits have upped the prices at the canteen a few times ontop! Coffee has gone from 12p to 30p! Strike tbh).
Minimum wage is not a living wage, that is why the government has to top it up, subsidising companies workforce. If these paid better, they wouldn't need working tax credits.
Most people on JSA are actually seeking work too. There are just far more of them then there are jobs available. Especially entry-level jobs, where since there are so many unemployed companies can demand experience even for minimum wage jobs, which is one of the most illogical and (imho) damaging things happening in the job market right now.
I would be happy with benefits rising with inflation, even though I work (private sector) for a living and haven't seen a pay rise in over 7 years now (and the cheeky gits have upped the prices at the canteen a few times ontop! Coffee has gone from 12p to 30p! Strike tbh).
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Yes blame the bankers; market crash due to bankers = economic problems and loss of jobs = austerity.
And so; I did not say the benefit system did not need fixing, it dose, but it's not the benefit system that led to the financial systems burning themselves out which led to current economic problems and so austerity.
The benefits problem is a separate issue and the press seize on this along with the government because its looks good to scapegoat the problems we have on people they may know or see in the street. This shifts blame away from the institutions that allowed the financial crisis to happen in the first place (government with lack of oversight and regulation).
Back to benefits; system is broken; some people take advantage, fix it for those who really have genuine reason.
And while we are at it; fix the tax system and go with the living wage idea then people can live reasonable lives with reasonable means. The more people that do this the more tax is paid into government from wages earned and wages spent to ease austerity measures. The more money in pockets means more people spend and thus the economy picks it's self up creating more jobs thus more prosperity and financial security.
This pretty much +1.
One thing people seem to forget.
A 3% increase in benefits isn't the same as a 3% payrise.
3% of £70 a week compared to 3% of £250 a week, the simple fact is most workers can get by still with a pay freeze, benefits are already significantly lower than than pay in most cases (except for a few rare exceptions with are NOT the standard for most).
It shows a real lack of character & moral fiber to support these changes, which looking at who is posting in favour doesn't surprise me one bit.
Shame on those who expect the poorest in society to feel the pain.
A decent provision for the poor is the true test of civilization. ~Samuel Johnson
A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members. ~ Mahatma Ghandi
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