Why do we want or even expect equality in society?

[JBod]

Why do we want or even expect equality? People are simply not born equal so why do we as society waste so much time, money and energy either forcing, pretending or convincing ourselves that everyone is?

What is wrong with having schools designed to push clever kids and schools designed to provide extra support for not so clever kids? It is not fair to the children or the future of our country to pretend otherwise.

Race and gender have a direct bearing on certain abilities. It is a simple fact of life, but modern society dictates we are not allowed to talk about it or point it out.

There are physiological reasons that a black guy always wins at sprinting and a white guy always wins at swimming.

There are reasons that men are more prone to be in the armed services while women are more likely to be in the health profession.

 

[Tummy]

People are equal and as such should be treated as equal.

 

[kwerk]

No no everyone is born equal and the only reason there are unequal outcomes is because the government didn't spend enough money. Fact.

 

[JBod]

People are equal and as such should be treated as equal.

Equal rights, yes. Everyone has the right to be treated fairly and with respect until proven otherwise.

Equal in the eyes of the law? Well they should be but reality is that they are not.

Equal in ability? No.

 

[Tummy]

You said people aren't born equal, they are. Everyone should be treated equally as we are all the same, in essence.

Re; you're school for smart and stupid children, what makes a smart child smart? Is it because they're good at an academic class? Would people that are very talented artists be put with the stupid people because they're not very good at English, Math or science?

Hilariously terrible idea.

 

[UncleRuckus]

You said people aren't born equal, they are.

 

[DampDog]

Race and gender have a direct bearing on certain abilities. It is a simple fact of life, but modern society dictates we are not allowed to talk about it or point it out.

I'l spilt that into 2.
1. "Race and gender have a direct bearing on certain abilities." is that straight out of Mein Kampf? People come in all shapes and sizes, tall, short, small, fat, even gingers. What criteria would you like us to sort them by?? Just those you don't like the look of?


2. "It is a simple fact of life, but modern society dictates we are not allowed to talk about it or point it out."

You could equally argue that institutionalised, racism, bigotry, and prejudice has held able people back because of their race, gender or even class.

 

[JBod]

It's not as simple as black people are great at running. White people are great at swimming. Etc.

Who wins marathons? Well, Africans are great, aren't they? Well, no... it's the Kenyans who are great, right? Well, no... it's the people from a small bit of Kenya, called Nandi, who are great.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14679657

I said sprinting

 

[Name]

For an answer to this thread, please refer to Charlie Chaplins Great Dictator speech. So epic.

 

[UncleRuckus]

I'l spilt that into 2.
1. "Race and gender have a direct bearing on certain abilities." is that straight out of Mein Kampf? People come in all shapes and sizes, tall, short, small, fat, even gingers. What criteria would you like us to sort them by?? Just those you don't like the look of?


2. "It is a simple fact of life, but modern society dictates we are not allowed to talk about it or point it out."

You could equally argue that institutionalised, racism, bigotry, and prejudice has held able people back because of their race, gender or even class.

Put the Red book down, son and go burn some bras.

 

[JBod]

I'l spilt that into 2.
1. "Race and gender have a direct bearing on certain abilities." is that straight out of Mein Kampf? People come in all shapes and sizes, tall, short, small, fat, even gingers. What criteria would you like us to sort them by?? Just those you don't like the look of?


2. "It is a simple fact of life, but modern society dictates we are not allowed to talk about it or point it out."

You could equally argue that institutionalised, racism, bigotry, and prejudice has held able people back because of their race, gender or even class.

Where did I say split up? (Or segregation as you are alluding to).

I am simply stating that we need to recognise as society that we are not all born equally and stop pretending that we are.

I am middle aged slightly over weight white male, I have never been good at sports and never got upset at those who are better than I am at it. Yet I was brighter than many of my age group through primary school but the government at the time was busy trying to close all the better selective secondary schools due to parents whining that their special ********* failed to gain entrance and therefore it was unfair for others to attend.

They in fact succeeded in closing many of the schools dedicated to special needs and put them in regular schools. This had the impact of slowing the education of existing children and not providing much in the way of special care to other children that really needed it.

 

[Moley]

People are NOT born equal of ability.

Examples:

I (a male of the species) am incapable of giving birth to a child (unlike a female of the species).

I (a short skinny bloke) am incapable of being good as basketball (unlike tall athletic types).

I (a high IQ individual) am capable of reading and understanding some very challenging texts (unlike people of lesser IQs or damaged cognitive ability).

However we should ALL be equal in OPPORTUNITY in life so we can all live a enjoyable and fulfilling life. However the reality is often far from this ideal and attempts to change the law to make this happen are frankly often poorly thought out and just don't work.

 

[Devrij]

Anyway. Equality of opportunity's great. Equality of outcome's a stupid notion.

This is how it is supposed to be. Meritocracy. The fact is that bad schools don't provide the same opportunities as good schools for a talented individual to grow. Bad schools tend to be in bad areas. Bad areas are populated by poor people. Poor people can't afford to pay for expensive schools or move to better areas. Poorly educated people don't get good jobs so they get stuck in poor areas. Rinse and repeat. So it isn't fair. The tricky part is working out who is working hard, who isn't and who isn't getting the opportunities they need. It gets harder still when you take class-culture into account and the effect that has on people and their outlooks on work and education.

Race and gender have a direct bearing on certain abilities. It is a simple fact of life, but modern society dictates we are not allowed to talk about it or point it out.

I strongly disagree with this statement if you are talking about mental ability. Because that's one step away from master-race talk, and that kind of talk doesn't end well. Physically, of course there are going to be genetic differences that get passed down through generations, but I wouldn't count them as heavily as environmental factors, which can be changed.

 

[aardvark]

People are equal and as such should be treated as equal.

obviously not.

 

[JBod]

People are NOT born equal of ability.

Examples:

I (a male of the species) am incapable of giving birth to a child (unlike a female of the species).

I (a short skinny bloke) am incapable of being good as basketball (unlike tall athletic types).

I (a high IQ individual) am capable of reading and understanding some very challenging texts (unlike people of lesser IQs or damaged cognitive ability).

However we should ALL be equal in OPPORTUNITY in life so we can all live a enjoyable and fulfilling life. However the reality is often far from this ideal and attempts to change the law to make this happen are frankly often poorly thought out and just don't work.

Absolutely, but the institutionalised notion we have is this also means equal abilities.

There are reasons that as a country we are descending down the worldwide league tables.

 

[Freefaller]

People are NOT born equal of ability.

Examples:

I (a male of the species) am incapable of giving birth to a child (unlike a female of the species).

I (a short skinny bloke) am incapable of being good as basketball (unlike tall athletic types).

I (a high IQ individual) am capable of reading and understanding some very challenging texts (unlike people of lesser IQs or damaged cognitive ability).

However we should ALL be equal in OPPORTUNITY in life so we can all live a enjoyable and fulfilling life. However the reality is often far from this ideal and attempts to change the law to make this happen are frankly often poorly thought out and just don't work.

Spot on really.

Everyone should be given the same opportunity or chances, but legislating to try and bring everybody up or down to the same level is ridiculous, it's just untenable.

 

[Devrij]

Spot on really.

Everyone should be given the same opportunity or chances, but legislating to try and bring everybody up or down to the same level is ridiculous, it's just untenable.

What examples of this do you oppose?

 

[JBod]

This is how it is supposed to be. Meritocracy. The fact is that bad schools don't provide the same opportunities as good schools for a talented individual to grow. Bad schools tend to be in bad areas. Bad areas are populated by poor people. Poor people can't afford to pay for expensive schools or move to better areas. Poorly educated people don't get good jobs so they get stuck in poor areas. Rinse and repeat. So it isn't fair. The tricky part is working out who is working hard, who isn't and who isn't getting the opportunities they need. It gets harder still when you take class-culture into account and the effect that has on people and their outlooks on work and education.



I strongly disagree with this statement if you are talking about mental ability. Because that's one step away from master-race talk, and that kind of talk doesn't end well. Physically, of course there are going to be genetic differences that get passed down through generations, but I wouldn't count them as heavily as environmental factors, which can be changed.

I was wondering when someone would mistake what I am saying as "master-race talk". Because this is really not what I mean, I don't care what your skin/hair colour is and nor should anyone.

We all have equal rights and opportunities but we are not all equal.

 

[checjb]

The reasons for this 'debate' are explored in a very insightful book by Benjamin Wiker. It can get a bit preachy and Christian in places (IMO, naturally) but there are some extremely valid points in it.
10 books that screwed up the world (and 5 more that didn't help)

 

[DampDog]

Where did I say split up? (Or segregation as you are alluding to).

What is wrong with having schools designed to push clever kids and schools designed to provide extra support for not so clever kids? It is not fair to the children or the future of our country to pretend otherwise.

What you're saying is dependant on "perceived or measured abilities" kids should be pushed or not pushed depending on how they perform or look?

I'll take a society that does it's best to offer equal opportunities to anyone who wants to try. Not simply cherry pick, those that are deemed acceptable or privileged enough. You talk about race and gender, boys makes good soldiers, girls make good nurses.. So Queen Boadicea was in the wrong job in your version of the world, and what of all the male consultants working for the NHS, should they be in the army?