Question to Vegans and Vegatarians.

Oh and I'm not a vegan in the clothing sense either. I would never ever wear fur, because of the animal being killed solely for it (mink etc).

But I would wear leather or sheepskin because I watched a documentary on how they're made and its waste product effectively. They send the skins from the slaughterhouses to factories which clean and process them before selling them on to garment producing factories. I think if an animal is going to be killed for meat consumption *anyway*, then they should make use of all the other parts.
 
TommyV said:
Sometimes it's a cost thing though Freefaller. Supplementing a protein shake in your diet in place of a chicken breast, can in some cases (dependent on brand and frequency ofcourse) prove more financially sound for some individuals.

Not downplaying your point ofcourse as it's perfectly valid, just wanted to bring it up.
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Oh of course - that's one thing I've always said in the supplement discussion thread in the sports arena. Supplements are great at supplementing your diet if it is nutritionally inadequate. That's what they're there for! It's just the "I must have protein shakes, and all these pills or else I won't be big" attitude that I just find laughable.

Supplementation has it's place - no doubts about that - it's the reliance on them that I can't help but frown at.
 
Freefaller said:
Oh of course - that's one thing I've always said in the supplement discussion thread in the sports arena. Supplements are great at supplementing your diet if it is nutritionally inadequate. That's what they're there for! It's just the "I must have protein shakes, and all these pills or else I won't be big" attitude that I just find laughable.

Supplementation has it's place - no doubts about that - it's the reliance on them that I can't help but frown at.
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I hear ya.

Overhearing people down the gym saying "I'm on protein shakes" like it's some kind of steroid makes me silently chuckle.
 
I believe we should be vegetarians. It is healthy, cheaper, better for the environment and can be just as tasty but it does require a bit more skill in the kitchen and also the main thing, we don't have to kill any animals. I thing being vegan is a bit too much as long as the animals are pooked after. However this is just my ideal. I am not a veggie but am considering it!
 
starfighter said:
I believe we should be vegetarians. It is healthy, cheaper, better for the environment and can be just as tasty but it does require a bit more skill in the kitchen and also the main thing, we don't have to kill any animals. I thing being vegan is a bit too much as long as the animals are pooked after. However this is just my ideal. I am not a veggie but am considering it!
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There is no evidence at all to suggest it is healthier - it's not necessarily cheaper.

However, I can understand the "better for the environment" argument. And I agree it does require more imagination/skill in the kitchen. However you still have to rely on processed foods such as mycoproteins and such like to get a decent amount of food in you - unless you like eating lots of pasta and other processed foods.

About killing animals - it's life (or death really :p). Sure, we over do it, and we waste food - that is not good I accept 100%. However, killing for food is just part of the world we live in. If we couldn't buy food in shops but were allowed to hunt for our meat - I can assure you I'd be doing that, as would a lot of people.

However, I could possibly live without meat if I was allowed fish... but then they say that there is too much fishing going on anyway. You cannot win!

I do agree though that everybody should try going vegetarian for a week or so - it's quite a fun experiment. :)
 
Freefaller said:
What's that got to do with the price of fish? I'm just saying that vegan/vegetarian bodybuilders do need to supplement their diets even more so.

I'm personally indifferent to supplements and seldom use them and there's seldom a need - but the marketing of supplement industry is brilliant.

That's not to say that some supplementation isn't a good thing - but yes I chuckle at the dependence of supplementation of some people.
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Because who says they NEED to supplement any more than the meat eaters who supplement, doing something doesn't imply NEED, it is a baseless argument.

Here is a vegan who supplements as he body builds therefore he needs to supplement.... this is illogical and simply not true.

Most meat eating bodybuilders do supplement, do they need to, no. Supplements ARE food, if you get the same stuff as you would get by eating food its simply a different way of consuming food, nothing else.

Its easier to eat foods that are quicker/easier to make, eat what you like, eat a narrower range of foods and supplement than to eat a massive range of foods for many reasons. Not everyone lives in the same place, regional differences in available foods and cost of foods are massive, what you eat to body build now where you live, might not be possible at all in Japan, or might cost three times as much and so you choose to eat other things and top up anything missing with supplements.

I fail to see the logic in "I don't believe in supplements", take a calcium pill with x mg's of calcium in, drink X ml's of milk to get the same amount of calcium, its calcium and you get it, everything you intake that feed's your body is food, be it a pill, or a steak. I love pizza, there are those weird 4 people on earth who don't like it. I like egg mayo, others don't, everyone eats differently and thus has a different nutritional profile in their food. I can eat food I don't like and be ultra strict and boring and measure everything to make sure I get what I want, or I can eat what I want and supplement what I want, simple.
 
Freefaller said:
Out of interest, I did a week's worth of eating no meat, and amazingly I missed fish the most rather than just meat alone.

Anyway, I was fine, didn't feel better/worse,
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I would have thought you'd need to not have it for longer than that to notice any effects.
 
My mouth has two very sharp pointy things in it. Specifically evolved to grasp on to flesh.

I imagine most people have these things in their faces too.
 
Freefaller said:
Oh of course - that's one thing I've always said in the supplement discussion thread in the sports arena. Supplements are great at supplementing your diet if it is nutritionally inadequate. That's what they're there for! It's just the "I must have protein shakes, and all these pills or else I won't be big" attitude that I just find laughable.

Supplementation has it's place - no doubts about that - it's the reliance on them that I can't help but frown at.
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There are just as many people who go "I had a 8 raw egg shake this morning, look how alpha I am", if your diet is not nutritionally inadequate that means you are CHOOSING what food to eat based off its nutritional content.... you are choosing what to supplement your body with. When you eat more meat after a workout you are supplementing your body with extra protein, vitamins and minerals, nothing more or less.

People who say "i'm on protein shakes" are probably just answering the question "where do you get your extra protein from", others answer, I eat extra precooked chicken at regular intervals, or, I have a nice juicy steak after a work out.

Nutrients, minerals, whatever, that is what you're taking in, the package is entirely irrelevant, a shake, a steak, a steak is just protein, fat, some carbs, and vitamins and minerals, a protein shake can be identical things and merely look different to the eye, yet is exactly the same.

Take a steak, cook it, throw it in a blender and turn it into a shake, what do you have, protein shake.......
 
krooton said:
I would have thought you'd need to not have it for longer than that to notice any effects.
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Probably - but my point was, that it wasn't enough of a "shock" or disrupted me enough to make me feel different in that period of time. Probably should have tried a month's worth - but since I follow a more paleolithic sort of diet (not for a particular reason, it just happens that my lifestyle happens to reflect, more by chance, this sort of lifestyle - i.e. don't eat much pasta/rice or processed carbohydrates or processed foods) I'd struggle a little. Entirely feasible - but it'd get a bit boring or require more culinary imagination! :D
 
drunkenmaster said:
There are just as many people who go "I had a 8 raw egg shake this morning, look how alpha I am", if your diet is not nutritionally inadequate that means you are CHOOSING what food to eat based off its nutritional content.... you are choosing what to supplement your body with. When you eat more meat after a workout you are supplementing your body with extra protein, vitamins and minerals, nothing more or less.

People who say "i'm on protein shakes" are probably just answering the question "where do you get your extra protein from", others answer, I eat extra precooked chicken at regular intervals, or, I have a nice juicy steak after a work out.

Nutrients, minerals, whatever, that is what you're taking in, the package is entirely irrelevant, a shake, a steak, a steak is just protein, fat, some carbs, and vitamins and minerals, a protein shake can be identical things and merely look different to the eye, yet is exactly the same.

Take a steak, cook it, throw it in a blender and turn it into a shake, what do you have, protein shake.......
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Keep taking your medication - your doctor will be with you shortly....

The gaggle of a madman. :p
 
Freefaller said:
No supplements are supplements not food. Because of that - I'm out, because (as usual) you talk a lot and say very little.
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As usual, you can't explain your irrational hatred of people supplementing and it being so different to eating(despite all the same ingredients and mechanisms).

A steak or protein shake, made up of precisely the same "pieces", goes through the exact same process in the body.

When your muscles build need muscle cells, they use lots of things, none of them are "steak", or meat, its the building blocks, the building blocks are the same no matter the source, the source is irrelevant

definition of food

1. Material, usually of plant or animal origin, that contains or consists of essential body nutrients, such as carbohydrates, fats, proteins, vitamins, or minerals, and is ingested and assimilated by an organism to produce energy, stimulate growth, and maintain life.
2. A specified kind of nourishment: breakfast food; plant food.
3. Nourishment eaten in solid form: food and drink.
4. Something that nourishes or sustains in a way suggestive of physical nourishment.

I fail to see where protein shake or supplement doesn't meet every single definition of food, or where "meat" or any other things that grow "naturally" if you can call it that, are "more" food than other things.

Especially when cattle and most animal products are pumped full of chemicals to improve muscle mass, weight and what not.... natural has very little to do with it, not least because by the narrow and arbitrary definition of supplements, the meat you eat is usually fed supplements.
 
Smigly said:
I'm a vegetarian.

I actually rather like Quorn. As much as its not about the taste for me, I'm a veggie because I don't like the idea of an animal being killed to feed me when I'm perfectly capable of surviving without it, not that I begrudge others the same, it's just me personally. I still eat eggs and stuff, but I like my eggs to be free range (again because of the ethical side).

But yeah, Quorn for me is amazing. If you compare a real steak and a Quorn steak, there's next to no fat in a Quorn one but a hell of a lot in a real one, plus there's almost the same or more protein in a Quorn one. And I know all the steak lovers in here will say there's absolutely no comparison between the two, for me it's a case of inclusion. I'm invited to a family barbecue and I'm just sat in the corner like a sad act munching on a bowl of coleslaw, or I could get Quorn burgers and sausages and feel included :D

So I don't see the need to change my diet and the thought of grown meat is just bizarre.
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Ah I see you've fallen for their marketing rubbish where they take advantage of the fact that most people are ignorant to the truth about dietary fat and still think that eating fat means gaining fat in your body.

The fat in a steak is good for you and generally fat free food isn't great or particularly nutritious. As in "alternatives" because the fat they take out is replaced with some crap to bring the flavour back.
 
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Supplements are not food. Get over it.

I take some supplements, I never deny doing so, but it's not a replacement for food, it's for cost saving - I never denied that - to bolster inadequacies in my diet when I haven't had a good day's worth of nutrition - or haven't been able to purchase the selection of foods I need.

Supplements are not a replacement for food.
 

ook, let me make something
abundantly clear for people
that are so bereft of activities
they feel like they gotta comment on mine.
first of all being a vegetarian should
never be associated with being
a revolutionary or being open-minded.
that's a dietary choice.
if someone wants to proliferate the
type of ignorance we're supposed to
be fighting by thinking that,
you're just ****ing yourself.
i don't go around promoting
beef and pultry shoving it in
people's faces.
i don't castigate people for not
eating steak sandwiches;
and i would never diss someone
for being a ****ing broccoli-head,
or living off of radishes,
or eating grass or tofu.
i like a lot of vegan cuisine.
but the illogicality of expecting
everyone to adopt their particular
idea of what being healthy is
is just preposterous.
i've seen some of you herbivores;
and if you want to argue health,
y'all need to eat some kind of supplement
because some of y'all are so skinny
that it's disgusting; looking like the
only hip-hop mother****ers on schindler's list.
being a malnutrition-ass got nothing to do
with being revolutionary or being on-point.
i'll be damned if i let somebody else push
their agenda on me. you know i don't eat pork,
not because i'm a muslim, i just don't
really like it, but i really will
**** a bird up. and fish is good
when that **** is fresh. it's like my *****
Vast Aire from Can Ox said. if you don't like
the smell of burning meat, well then get
the **** off the planet. you know i don't
criticize people for eating moss,
then don't open your ****ing mouth
about my food, man. i like beef
and broccoli mother****er. mind
your god-damn business. matter of fact...
you know what? i'm out. i feel like some
arroz con pollo, a banana daiquiri, and
a mother****ing bistec aponado.
 
drunkenmaster said:
So why did you choose the food you eat if not to get the nutritional intake you want?
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His point, which I suspect you actually do get, is that things like protein shakes are supposed to supplement (hence the name) a balanced diet and that relying on supplements probably means you're not eating a balanced diet.

Aside from the protein, there are other things in meats that aren't in protein supplements anyway like the various fats and other nutrients which make up a balanced diet.

You really do use a lot of words to say very little.
 
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