Valve sued (in Germany) for not allowing Steam users to resell games

Good luck.

(IE - Are you going to bring a case against the retailer at your expense? Nope)

Make your mind up, you claimed you were not able to do it a minute ago. Now you agree you can do it, but have changed your story to 'it's difficult'?

Difficult is, at least, an improvement on 'impossible without significant hardship' as is the case with Valve. I know from experience that some retailers are aware of obligations under SOGA and will refund licensed software which is being returned for those reasons. Infact, I've done it myself from the retailers position. The fact its licensed is very much a red herring - those who would cause issue doing it would cause similar issues returning non-licensed products for the same reason.
 
[TW]Fox;23672149 said:
Make your mind up, you claimed you were not able to do it a minute ago. Now you agree you can do it, but have changed your story to 'it's difficult'?

Difficult is, at least, an improvement on 'impossible without significant hardship' as is the case with Valve. I know from experience that some retailers are aware of obligations under SOGA and will refund licensed software which is being returned for those reasons. Infact, I've done it myself from the retailers position. The fact its licensed is very much a red herring - those who would cause issue doing it would cause similar issues returning non-licensed products for the same reason.

As far as I am aware SOGA definitions/implications do not cover unsealed software and/or a contract to supply licensed software.

I use the term difficult in that in all likeliness retailers oblige your request as a matter of "It's easier than having it out with a customer" rather than an obligation under law.

If push came to shove is Joe Public returning his unwanted copy of Sim City likely to test his rights under SOGA in the courts? No.
 
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As far as I am aware SOGA definitions/implications do not cover unsealed software and/or a contract to supply licensed software.

You appear to be confusing SOGA with the Distance Selling Regulations. You are correct in that the DSR does not cover software. SOGA is not the same. We are not talking about changing your mind - we are talking about products that are faulty, unfit for purpose or not of merchantable quality. The fact it's 'licensed software' does not mean that SOGA doesn't apply!

I use the term difficult in that in all likeliness retailers oblige your request as a matter of "It's easier than having it out with a customer" rather than an obligation under law.

It *is* an obligation under law.

If push came to shove is Joe Public returning his unwanted copy of Sim City likely to test his rights under SOGA in the courts? No.

He probably wouldn't need to.

Yet if he attempted a chargeback through Steam he'd find he suddenly lost all his other games he'd paid for.
 
I also hope they win. You should be able to resell crap you don't play and don't want sitting in your steam account anymore when others can have it.
 
Not confusing SGA with DSR at all.

Stating it *IS* an obligation is probably a step to far. It's a relatively uncontested court matter.

If you are interested at all in the law behind it all then this is an exceptionally interesting read:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...-1125-consumer-rights-in-digital-products.pdf

It has case studies that are well worth musing over (If law at all interest you).

The biggest point of contention is whether the licence to use the software as per the EULA or other defined contractual obligations becomes a transfer of goods within the definition of the SGA. Particular attention being made to the medium in which it is delivered which only serves to seriously confuse the matter more.

I am not going to say the situation as it is is right, easy to interpret or AT ALL clear for the consumer. What I am debating is that the mere fact a retailer has, at one point, accepted a refund on software is not an indication it is an obligation under law. Nor that if contested in a court would be bad news for the retailer failing to meet their obligations under SGA. In-fact I wholeheartedly expect, at a consumer level, the complexity of the SGA law, it's definitions and how it's archaic nature applies to the modern world result in nothing but a ridiculous battle of retardedness.
 
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Not confusing SGA with DSR at all.

Oh dear.

Stating it *IS* an obligation is probably a step to far. It's a relatively uncontested court matter.

It's not a step too far - refunding or exchanging items which are either unfit for purpose or not of merchantable quality *is* a legal obligation. It is a consumers statutory right, it doesn't become optional if there is a peice of paper with 'EULA' on it in the box.

It is not an untested court matter. There *are* untested court matters surrounding license software, like for exmaple the validity of the EULA at all, but this is entirely seperate and unrelated to your statutory rights under the Sale of Goods Act.

That doesnt mean every retailer will just oblige, many don't - but thats becase many staff don't really understand SOGA.

If you are interested at all in the law behind it all then this is an exceptionally interesting read:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...-1125-consumer-rights-in-digital-products.pdf

It has case studies that are well worth musing over (If law at all interest you).

The biggest point of contention is whether the licence to use the software as per the EULA or other defined contractual obligations becomes a transfer of goods within the definition of the SGA. Particular attention being made to the medium in which it is delivered which only serves to seriously confuse the matter more.[/quote]

It doesn't seem that confusing to me. I'm specifically discussing physical media purchased in a store. Your link says:

However, serious doubts have been expressed about the application of the implied terms to contracts for digital products, on the grounds that “goods” must be tangible, physical objects, so that a pure digital product is not “goods”, unless it is supplied on some physical medium such as CD or DVD

This is most apparent in the key decision of the Court of Appeal in the St Alban’s v ICL case in which Lord Justice Glidewell gave his opinion that software may be classified as goods so long as it is supplied on some physical medium such as a CD

So, as you can see - there is no legal grey area regarding the application of SOGA to games purchased on CD or DVD.



What I am debating is that the mere fact a retailer has, at one point, accepted a refund on software is not an indication it is an obligation under law.

I'm sorry my posts gave you the impression my entire view was based on the fact that apparently, once, a retailer refunded some software for me. I am happy to clarify this is not the case.
 
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I wish people would realise that what once applied to tangible goods no longer applies to non tangible goods, the same logic does not apply.

If you do not like it, do not use Steam or any games which use it.

All this will end up doing is creating a complete mess.

Pretty much spot on. You can't apply the same standards to digital media as you could when it was purely physical because they the digital media cannot degrade.
 
Meh, i would never think of re-selling a game anyway as i never buy game unless it is £10 or under these days :p
 
On the car thing.
In a 5 year period, how many cars does the average driver buy? And how many games does the average gamer buy?

Not really sure on the relevance considering the massive disparity in cost.

I wonder if people would be so keen to defend the company if it was Origin or Windows Live that was being taken to court?
 
Instead of enforcing trade ins, how about giving us ****ing demos to see if the game will actually run on our systems let alone ****ing be enjoyable. Seriously... the amount of games that have demos on the consoles but not the ****ing PC platform is a joke, we are the ones who NEED demos! This is what really ****s me off.

**** trade-ins, they'll kill the platform.

Allow demos, cause we have a ****ing right to them on this platform.

Give us a ****ing 2 hour refund period from the second the game is launched (not bought) just incase.

That is all the platform needs to become fair to the consumer, no way should digital goods be able to be traded in, they don't degrade...

/****ing rant.
 
Are we all fogrgetting vavles rather heavy handed change in T+C's recently that meant you couldn't play your games you had bought previously unless you agreed to the NEW T+C's.

Also after this Valve shortly implemented the Valve market, I thought it would be great to use it kinda like eBay and sell on my old games....

Oh hang on, the market appears only to be for absolutely useless in game junk for only 2 games!

I personally hope they win and valve are forced to allow end users to dis-associate games from their accounts and give away/sell/trade/feed to the dog their old serials.

As for EULA's majority of which you only get to see once the disc has been inserted and the installation started, never have I seen and item with a full EULA printer on the outer packaging.

EDIT: as for omaeka's point about demo's very valid, I think a lot of people treat pirate software as their demo's and then decide wether or not to buy.
 
Not really sure on the relevance considering the massive disparity in cost.

I wonder if people would be so keen to defend the company if it was Origin or Windows Live that was being taken to court?

I'd have the same stance if it was either of those, given the same applies now.

I can't sell games I buy on Google store? I can't sell games I buy on PSN, I can't sell games I buy on Origin, etc.

A pre-owned game buyer is MANY times more lost sales than one car in X year period which most people point blank can't afford to buy new.
 
Not really sure on the relevance considering the massive disparity in cost.

A game is consumable.

Once consumed, its value is generally much less.

A car does not lose its worth with the owner, just because they drove it the day before.

The developer make a living on people consuming their product.

With a second hand car, they still sell the parts and thus still have a constant revenue stream. even more so with the second hand owner.
 
Are we all fogrgetting vavles rather heavy handed change in T+C's recently that meant you couldn't play your games you had bought previously unless you agreed to the NEW T+C's.

Also after this Valve shortly implemented the Valve market, I thought it would be great to use it kinda like eBay and sell on my old games....

Oh hang on, the market appears only to be for absolutely useless in game junk for only 2 games!

I personally hope they win and valve are forced to allow end users to dis-associate games from their accounts and give away/sell/trade/feed to the dog their old serials.

As for EULA's majority of which you only get to see once the disc has been inserted and the installation started, never have I seen and item with a full EULA printer on the outer packaging.

EDIT: as for omaeka's point about demo's very valid, I think a lot of people treat pirate software as their demo's and then decide wether or not to buy.

Thing is though, look how loosely supported our platform is, sure we get ports but they are either A) unoptimized to hell and play like a bag of spanners or B) have awful support, i.e Street Fighter x Tekken just getting the 7 month old 1.06 patch while the consoles are one the 7 day old 1.08 complete content overhaul patch. We wont see the .08 patch for another half year. There are tons of factors that play into this kind of practice; piracy, low sales figures etc.

Now, give us demos and piracy will plummet, but give us trade ins and so will the sales figures. From the looks of it, these kind of people are only trying to enforce trade ins which means that piracy won't change but sales figures will still plummet, which means even less support for our platform.

I understand that PC gaming is a very expensive hobby hardware wise and what have you, and that IMO should carry on into the software side for the simple reason that it is the only thing that keeps the developers giving us any kind of support.

I understand the viewpoint of some people, how they think that trade ins will force developers to make better games that people don't trade in but that's a fantasy. What will happen, is tons of developers walk away from the market completely, as most are dangling by a string as it is.

I honestly don't mind not being able to trade games in because as above, it's really the only thing that's keeping developers in our market. Quite frankly it isn't fair either, as for example; I've put 250+ hours into Civilization V, is it fair that I can now demand for a chunk of my money back? :confused:

Bring in preownership and lose your sales too. Trust me if this comes around and happens, all of the people on the opposite side who want trade ins will regret it within a year, probably sooner. Fact.

Demos + small initial window for refunds = win. They will encourage developers to up their quality, not bloody trade ins. Most people will still trade a game in even if they loved it and got hours and hours of enjoyment.

Infact, let Steam tracking decided. Trade in value should be based on the hours you've played, that might work. Put in 5 hours or less? 40% trade in. 10-20 hours? 20%. 20-40 hours? 10%. 40-50 hours? 5%. 50+ hours? Ability to gift it to somebody, but no money back.

That might work. Any other outcome will destroy PC Gaming, end of.

Please open your eyes people.

EDIT: Oh, and preowned keys shouldn't then be sold on at a discount, it should just be thrown into the pile of brand new keys for full price.
 
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EDIT: Oh, and preowned keys shouldn't then be sold on at a discount, it should just be thrown into the pile of brand new keys for full price.

Who is going to pay to administer all this cluster ****?

For example, when you sell your WOW key, who is going to dis associate that key from the account?

Activision will charge you £20 for the privilage.
 
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