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Richland, Kaveri, Kabini & Temash; AMD’s 2013 APU Lineup Examined

When's Kaveri out :p?

A guy can get confused with all these names lol.

Richland according to that is the one with GCN, I always could have swore you mentioned the GCN one as being pretty game changing.


All these names is pretty confusing, but i already went through this in this very thread :p

Richland (A10-6800K) is exactly the same 32nm Piledriver core as Trinity, its also the same iGPU, its just had a few tweaks.

Kaveri will be the 28nm SR core and GCN iGPU, it looks like it may also have on chip vRam.

Its due late this year.
 
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Anyone know if mobile Richland will be FS1r2? I wonder if it will need any special BIOS microcode to function normally...
 
Anyone know if mobile Richland will be FS1r2? I wonder if it will need any special BIOS microcode to function normally...

Same FM2 socket.

Edit, mobile? don't know, you planing on swapping the one in your Laptop?
 
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Maybe. A8/A10 mobile Trinity chips were on eBay before they officially launched. If I can get a cooler, faster APU and sell my A10 4600m with minimal outlay I might just for the giggles. The 4600m really is bound by it's thermal/power envelope, the silicon is capable of so much more :(
 
I wouldn't be surprised to see Desktop Kaveri in 2014, and Mobile stuff in Q4 2013.

Actually,desktop Kaveri will ship first:

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Shows-and-Expos/AMD-CES-2013-Temash-Kabini-and-Kaveri-side-Sea-Islands

I have actually linked to the article before on OcUK AFAIK.

Richland is basically a more efficient Trinity.

It seems AMD is refreshing their desktop APUs every six months now.

First you had Trinity in October 2012,Richland in March 2013,and Kaveri in Q4 2013,hopefully around October,or maybe November(7 months).
 
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These parts will be desktop at first and will transition to mobile in 2014. AMD wants (and needs) to get these parts out in a timely manner, and they are pulling in the launch as much as possible. Hence the desktop first release while they refine production to be able to adequately address the mobile space. Achieving good bins and yields at the higher TDP is easier than trying to hit those numbers for a 35 watt and below product line

The same was true of the Trinity launch and what happened? They held back desktop to allow stock to shift. IIRC there is more Trinity stock in the channel than there ever was of Llano. Mobile is where the money is
 
Ah, sorry CAT, didn't see you had already linked it.

Still looking forward to getting one. Should be a nice (to say the least) upgrade from my Athlon xp!
 
The A6-5200 and A4-5000 are meant to be Jaguar based SOCs!!

They keep up with the desktop A4-6300!!

I'm really looking forward to see what those new Jaguar chips can do, there is already a hint of it in page one of this thread.

They do look impressive, hopefully that is what we are getting in the Desktop after this one is out of the way.

AMD pilfered Jim Keller back from Apple, he was responsible for the Athlon XP, everything at AMD went downhill when he left.

Having him back where he belongs, can only be a good thing and Apples loss, he created some good CPU's at Apple.
 
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The goal at the start of the project was to lower typical application power by 10%. Ultimately, using a design methodology that included deployment of PowerPro® from Calypto®, AMD was able to lower the typical power by approximately 20% while increasing frequency at the given voltage by over 10%.

Thats over Bobcat, which was already not bad, certainly a lot better than Bulldozer and Piledriver, relatively.

If i read that right, they managed to increase power efficiency by 20% and increasing the clock rate by 10%, giving 20% total beter performance per watt

The Bobcat architecture with those optimisations is what we want for the Desktop.
Unfortunately... will it be possible to scale up a tiny 3.1 mm² Mobile chip to 100 times that size. (315 mm²)

I think if they could, it would put AMD right back in it.
 
Bobcat vs desktop isn't 3.1mm2 vs 315mm2, I'm not sure if the numbers I've found were confirmed accurate but they sound about right from memory, first bobcats were 4.6mm^2, and 3mm^2 for 512kb cache, Piledriver is 30.9MM^2 for a module, with 2MB L2 cache, so bobcat is 15.2mm^2 for two cores and 1mb cache, throw in another meg of cache and thats 21.2mm^2 vs 30.9mm^2 for Piledriver. Each Sandybridge core was a bit over 17mm^2 with its L2, so 34mm^2 compared to 30.9 of Piledriver.

Keep in mind that relative to that Intel's 45nm Atom had 9.7mm^2 cores and 4.4mm^2 for 512kb cache, or for 2 cores + 2mb cache = 37mm^2, Intel's 45nm works out at significantly larger than TSMC's 40nm for lots of reasons(size of the biggest parts are often as relevant as size of the smallest). The smallest gap between transistors on 40nm at TSMC was 120nm, 160nm on Intel's 45nm, and the only number I can find is 126nm for Glofo's 32nm. So while Glofo's process is newer and it is better than 40nm at TSMC, its designed for a different purpose, faster the chip, you use different transistors, and you need to leave a bigger space between transistors effectively.

So the size difference isn't massive, and relatively speaking mobile chips designed for less speed can be more dense, and in this case use an entirely different process that is aimed at different devices. GloFo/AMD really only made CPU's aimed at 3Ghz plus on 32nm, while TSMC rarely make stuff over 1.5Ghz, with a crapload of the stuff they make being aimed at well below 1Ghz so their design goals are completely different.

Ultimately Zacate is 74mm^2 in size, Bulldozer with 4 times as many cores, is 314mm^2, smaller process, in theory but in reality, processes are designed for low speeds + density, or high speeds + less dense, this is why Intel and AMD cpu's at their own fabs have been significantly lower in density than stuff coming out of TSMC.

Things like resonant clock mesh on Bulldozer based chips(maybe introduced with piledriver, or Richland, can't remember) are ways to bring power down, and power saving thinking of Kabini will make it into Steamroller, or the next version. Same as Intel who spent a couple years focusing on low power Atom and making it not be a stinking hunk of ****, and their job straight after was bringing the same thinking to Haswell.


The cores themselves aren't hugely bigger, but designed for a VERY different goal, and running a chip at 4Ghz instead of 1.5Ghz uses up a heck of a lot more logic around the cores. Bulldozer isn't terrible size wise, it could likely get better, it gained die size doing automatic layouts, but can lose that again as that technology is improving a lot. I'm not sure if Richland is supposed to be using the new method, due to power saving supposedly happening in richland, smaller die and less power waste would make quite a bit of sense. But vs Intel 32nm stuff, the cores/cache aren't bad at all, the rest of the core isn't quite as efficient, but that could be for so many different reasons, cost, design, process issues needing to space things out, size of parts other than core logic.
 
Bobcat vs desktop isn't 3.1mm2 vs 315mm2, I'm not sure if the numbers I've found were confirmed accurate but they sound about right from memory, first bobcats were 4.6mm^2, and 3mm^2 for 512kb cache, Piledriver is 30.9MM^2 for a module, with 2MB L2 cache, so bobcat is 15.2mm^2 for two cores and 1mb cache, throw in another meg of cache and thats 21.2mm^2 vs 30.9mm^2 for Piledriver. Each Sandybridge core was a bit over 17mm^2 with its L2, so 34mm^2 compared to 30.9 of Piledriver.

Keep in mind that relative to that Intel's 45nm Atom had 9.7mm^2 cores and 4.4mm^2 for 512kb cache, or for 2 cores + 2mb cache = 37mm^2, Intel's 45nm works out at significantly larger than TSMC's 40nm for lots of reasons(size of the biggest parts are often as relevant as size of the smallest). The smallest gap between transistors on 40nm at TSMC was 120nm, 160nm on Intel's 45nm, and the only number I can find is 126nm for Glofo's 32nm. So while Glofo's process is newer and it is better than 40nm at TSMC, its designed for a different purpose, faster the chip, you use different transistors, and you need to leave a bigger space between transistors effectively.

So the size difference isn't massive, and relatively speaking mobile chips designed for less speed can be more dense, and in this case use an entirely different process that is aimed at different devices. GloFo/AMD really only made CPU's aimed at 3Ghz plus on 32nm, while TSMC rarely make stuff over 1.5Ghz, with a crapload of the stuff they make being aimed at well below 1Ghz so their design goals are completely different.

Ultimately Zacate is 74mm^2 in size, Bulldozer with 4 times as many cores, is 314mm^2, smaller process, in theory but in reality, processes are designed for low speeds + density, or high speeds + less dense, this is why Intel and AMD cpu's at their own fabs have been significantly lower in density than stuff coming out of TSMC.

Things like resonant clock mesh on Bulldozer based chips(maybe introduced with piledriver, or Richland, can't remember) are ways to bring power down, and power saving thinking of Kabini will make it into Steamroller, or the next version. Same as Intel who spent a couple years focusing on low power Atom and making it not be a stinking hunk of ****, and their job straight after was bringing the same thinking to Haswell.


The cores themselves aren't hugely bigger, but designed for a VERY different goal, and running a chip at 4Ghz instead of 1.5Ghz uses up a heck of a lot more logic around the cores. Bulldozer isn't terrible size wise, it could likely get better, it gained die size doing automatic layouts, but can lose that again as that technology is improving a lot. I'm not sure if Richland is supposed to be using the new method, due to power saving supposedly happening in richland, smaller die and less power waste would make quite a bit of sense. But vs Intel 32nm stuff, the cores/cache aren't bad at all, the rest of the core isn't quite as efficient, but that could be for so many different reasons, cost, design, process issues needing to space things out, size of parts other than core logic.

Thanks for that explanation :)
 
I'm really looking forward to see what those new Jaguar chips can do, there is already a hint of it in page one of this thread.

They do look impressive, hopefully that is what we are getting in the Desktop after this one is out of the way.

AMD pilfered Jim Keller back from Apple, he was responsible for the Athlon XP, everything at AMD went downhill when he left.
he was an assistant engineer on k7, and head architect of k8,=(is his fame), and he was joint responsible for x86-64 and HT. I haven't seen so much innovation in x86 since these days.

Having him back where he belongs, can only be a good thing and Apples loss, he created some good CPU's at Apple.
Will be interesting how hsa works out, but amd's faults have always been a good architecture vs the slow adoption of software that makes use of it.
 
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Will be interesting how hsa works out, but amd's faults have always been a good architecture vs the slow adoption of software that makes use of it.

That may change now that AMD have cornered the console market. Software houses will be developing for similar processors to AMD's PC range and will maybe finally able to better utilise the PC chips potential as only some games (such as BF3) can these days. This might actually be good news for AMD's existing line-up when it comes to new titles too. Though if fevelopers started utilising multicore processors effectively that would be good news for both Intel and AMD and users in general.
 
Will be interesting how hsa works out, but amd's faults have always been a good architecture vs the slow adoption of software that makes use of it.

Things didn't really go downhill for AMD, things went uphill for Intel. Ath 64 was decent, but at the same time AMD didn't have the cash to expand, and had they expanded production two things would have made it not work, Intel was paying out basically billions in pay offs to pc builders to not buy AMD chips and had they expanded when ath 64 launched, you're talking finding somewhere, building and ramping up a fab, basically 4-5 years minimum and several billion.

After ath 64, process technology was rising in cost dramatically, from a billion or 2 for outfitting a fab and research towards 4-5 billion, towards 10billion in the future.

If keller, or anyone else who left had stayed, Intel would still be paying people off, AMD sales still wouldn't have happened, process costs would still have spiralled out of control of AMD's budget(hence the spin off which saved AMD, zero question about that), and Intel would still have gone from half arse-ing it to actually bothering and their pockets and resources.

That phenom or bulldozer are able to compete so closely with a company spending MASSIVELY more with a freaking huge process advantage actually paints in incredibly good picture for the quality of AMD's chips. Intel's process advantage is monumental for them and something AMD simply couldn't afford. If Intel wasn't paying off people to not go for AMD cheaper alternatives for like, a decade, AMD would have made significantly more and likely expanded their production before costs spiralled out of control, but that would also in the future have spread the cost of process R&D across 2 big fabs and twice as many chips produced, which would have let AMD be profitable rather than make a loss. Intel paying off people to not go AMD cost AMD any chance to be truly competitive with Intel long term.

I have no figures for R&D but lets assume Intel have spent 10-20bil in the last 5 years and AMD have spent 4-5billion, and they are making chips a full generation of process's behind(dropping power by 30-40% and die size by a similar amount) we should absolutely expect AMD to be making chips that use 30-40% more power, are 30-40% bigger and significantly slower. Bulldozer CAN beat a Ivy in a bunch of situation and lose in others, the fact that it can get at all close is absolutely fantastic.

In terms of HSA, one thing going for it is a lot of major players have gotten into the alliance for it, so its not AMD pushing software, its like 20 companies doing it. Having all the consoles and importantly their cpu's in them means a lot if not all games will be better optimised for AMD hardware, cpu and gpu, which will end up looking good in reviews for sure.

ULtimately what AMD needs is Linux, game dev's to move to open gl or some new API, not DX, not tied in to Windows where most/all software is produced on Intel compilers.

Have a look around for AMD on linux performance, there are LOADS of software packages that on a properly compiled linux optimised for AMD gains 20+ % in performance.

Cheaper linux pc's, with all games working, with AMD not being sabotaged by software would be amazing for AMD. But MS has done incredibly well to lock everyone in to DX, its probably a large reason they got into consoles, as it keeps all games DX, and prevents a move away from Windows for the entire market :(
 
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