Anyone ever become an atheist after believing?

Conscript · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:11

Jason2 said:
That would mean life is futile then. How can life have any worth if death is the end and there is no soul or afterlife? .

Just lol.

If you cant see any worth in a life that ultimately ends, I pity you.

I don't believe in an afterlife. I believe that when I die, that's it; that realisation only helps me to enjoy my time here all the more, it is by no means worthless.

In fact, I find that belief infinitely preferable to the alternative where I live in fear of eternal damnation dependant on my obedience to a religious code of questionable morals.

dirtychinchilla · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:17

ringo747 said:
What do they disagree on?

The list is endless! The origins of the universe is the biggest one!

Jason2 · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:20

Conscript said:
Just lol.

If you cant see any worth in a life that ultimately ends, I pity you.

I don't believe in an afterlife. I believe that when I die, that's it; that realisation only helps me to enjoy my time here all the more, it is by no means worthless.

In fact, I find that belief infinitely preferable to the alternative where I live in fear of eternal damnation dependant on my obedience to a religious code of questionable morals.

Pity me all you like. I don't need it. What about those people whose lives have been lost due to the actions of others? Essentially, it really doesn't matter. There's no justice for them is there. They just rot and that's it. Basically like they never even existed.

Yamahahahahaha · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:20

Jason2 said:
You've just undermined the whole of Christianity.

The Catholic church has been doing a fine job of that for years.

Jason2 said:
The whole point of Jesus is that he was to die for the sins of the world. If you reject him you reject God.

I don't reject him but I would like a point-by-point breakdown of the precise effects of what was achieved by his 3 day nap. He didn't sacrifice anything as he came back to life, then went up to heaven to live for eternity in the land of ultimate happiness. So Brave.

Jason2 said:
If you honestly believe Jesus did not refer to himself as the messiah then you are either a)ignorant or b)stupid.

He may have done, but it doesn't mean he was. Whatever a messiah is.

Jason2 said:
What about those people whose lives have been lost due to the actions of others?

Precisely! Why didn't God cut them some slack? It wasn't their fault! So God intentionally lets people die now, and doesn't save people who are nice to him? Great.

Jason2 said:
Essentially, it really doesn't matter. There's no justice for them is there. They just rot and that's it. Basically like they never even existed.

Define justice? There's nothing wrong with living then dying. Jesus did it for a whole 3 days before disappearing off to heaven! I did it for 13 billion years before ending up here, and I'll do it for the rest of time given the chance.

JoeF1 · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:23

This is just going to go in circles and circles.

Question if god is the creator of all what about all the life threatening diseases? Did he create them?

Would you thank god for curing them or medical Science?

Jason2 · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:26

Yamahahahahaha said:
The Catholic church has been doing a fine job of that for years.
I don't reject him but I would like a point-by-point breakdown of the precise effects of what was achieved by his 3 day nap. He didn't sacrifice anything as he came back to life, then went up to heaven to live for eternity in the land of ultimate happiness. So Brave.
He may have done, but it doesn't mean he was. Whatever a messiah is.

I can't explain to you because you come across as ignorant. If your truly interested then read the prophecies. You will understand what Jesus did and why. The "how-it-works" part of it is irrelevant. C.S Lewis explained this perfectly. He said people were eating healthy foods long before the idea of vitamins came along, and people will continue to eat healthy foods after vitamins have disappeared. All we know Jesus' death has made us right with God. It works. That's the bottom line.

As for your obvious mocking of Jesus ascending into heaven, again, if you actually did a bit of research and read the prophecies you would understand why. The stage is not yet set for his return, but it is building. Prophecies are being fulfilled right now.

Castiel · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:27

Jason2 said:
You've just undermined the whole of Christianity. The whole point of Jesus is that he was to die for the sins of the world. If you reject him you reject God. If you honestly believe Jesus did not refer to himself as the messiah then you are either a)ignorant or b)stupid.

I am neither ignorant nor stupid, particularly about religion. I would thank you to keep this civil.

I am pointing out that the inference that you must believe in Christ's divinity (and by implication that the Sin of Unbelief) to attain salvation is one of interpretation, and not one shared by all Christians, let alone one that is to be used as an authority as you you are doing.

Also it isn't about rejecting Christ or about his position of being the Messiah, but about looking at the words he said in a different way. Even if we do accept Christ's divinity, the passage still doesn't read in the way that you proscribe, as I said, it doesn't necessarily imply a sin of unbelief, but the iniquity of continuing to sin, which bars salvation.....you interpret it as salvation must be through the belief of Christ, whereas it is equally valid to interpret it as the salvation is for all as demonstrated by Christ. It is about the belief in the message, when we look at the language used in the original Greek as opposed to the Latin we see the truth of this.

It can be understood thus: That those who have lived in sin are, through grace, saved by repentance whereas those who do not seek repentance either through pardon or deed and that the power of their sin remains unbroken then Salvation itself cannot save them.

(ref:Job 20:11, Ezek: 3:19, 33:9 32:27)

essentially, the sin of unbelief is fallacious and was not a teaching of Christ, but an interpretation of man. It depends upon whether you interpret the passage in isolation or within the context of the Scripture in general.

Yamahahahahaha · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:28

JoeF1 said:
This is just going to go in circles and circles.

Ah, we're talking about Buddhism now?

JoeF1 said:
Question if God is the creator of all what about all the life threatening diseases? Did he create them?

Of course he did! All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small! All the cute little HPV cancer-causing viruses, all those delightful Mosquitos killing millions of people by spreading Malaria - another of his beautiful creations!

Jason2 · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:30

JoeF1 said:
This is just going to go in circles and circles.

Question if god is the creator of all what about all the life threatening diseases? Did he create them?

Would you thank god for curing them or medical Science?

You ASSUME God is in control. Back in Genesis we read that God cursed the whole Earth. This meant that the natural became corrupt. The thing is, it's said plainly in the bible that this world is in the hands of the "evil one", meaning the devil (or satan). We've created our bed, now we must lie in it. However, in his great mercy, God has offered us a way back. To reject it is really foolish.

dirtychinchilla · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:33

Jason2 said:
You ASSUME God is in control. Back in Genesis we read that God cursed the whole Earth. This meant that the natural became corrupt. The thing is, it's said plainly in the bible that this world is in the hands of the "evil one", meaning the devil (or satan). We've created our bed, now we must lie in it. However, in his great mercy, God has offered us a way back. To reject it is really foolish.

But to us athiests it's all a load of rubbish, so for you to accept it is really foolish.

ringo747 · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:33

dirtychinchilla said:
The list is endless! The origins of the universe is the biggest one!

Any more examples? Regarding the origin of the universe, which scientific theory is unworkable if God does exist?

JoeF1 · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:37

Jason2 said:
You ASSUME God is in control. Back in Genesis we read that God cursed the whole Earth. This meant that the natural became corrupt. The thing is, it's said plainly in the bible that this world is in the hands of the "evil one", meaning the devil (or satan). We've created our bed, now we must lie in it. However, in his great mercy, God has offered us a way back. To reject it is really foolish.

Didn't god create satan as well though? Being the creator of everything. Why would he do that? So god offering his way back is you saying its that years of research by scientists is all down to god showing them the way? Not trollin legitimate question.

On a side note I have to commend you on the arguments. You've had a lot against you.

Conscript · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:38

ringo747 said:
Any more examples? Regarding the origin of the universe, which scientific theory is unworkable if God does exist?

Well current theories place the age of our observable universe at about 13bn years old.

Isn't this at odds to the creationist theory about the universe being created by God ~6000 years ago?

dirtychinchilla · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:38

ringo747 said:
Any more examples? Regarding the origin of the universe, which scientific theory is unworkable if God does exist?

Well if God created the earth and the universe, how did the big bang create the univrse? They both give different reasons for the same thing, which is an evident conflict.

It depends which religious group you refer to. Christian fundamentalists in America (and many everyday Christians) deny the factuality of evolution.

Yamahahahahaha · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:40

Jason2 said:
I can't explain to you because you come across as ignorant. If your truly interested then read the prophecies.

I was raised a Roman Catholic son, I know my Christianity. It's a nice story book, like Lord Of The Rings, but with more fantasy.

Jason2 said:
You will understand what Jesus did and why.

I know what the Bible says he did, and the reasons the Bible gives for him doing it. Reality: He didn't die for 3 days and come back to life. He didn't ascend to heaven. There is no empirical evidence of pre and post sacrifice levels of sin across the universe. Even if it had fallen, correlation is not causation.

Jason2 said:
The "how-it-works" part of it is irrelevant.

You call me ignorant then willfully ignore the desire to explain something fantastical? You do me a disservice good sir!

Jason2 said:
C.S Lewis explained this perfectly. He said people were eating healthy foods long before the idea of vitamins came along, and people will continue to eat healthy foods after vitamins have disappeared.

Sure, if you want to completely ignore all the really unhealthy things people did, like wearing lead-based makeup. Hell, they couldn't even reliably cure leprosy back in Jesus' time! Modern medicine can, 15 million people cured (and counting).

Jason2 said:
All we know Jesus' death has made us right with God. It works. That's the bottom line.

Jesus didn't stay dead. Why not? Surely that would have been a greater sacrifice? Or is 3 days 'enough' of a sacrifice? Why 3 days? Loads of people have been dead much longer than 3 days! Can you point to any scientific studies outlining the precise effects of Jesus' sacrifice so we can test it please?

Jason2 said:
As for your obvious mocking of Jesus ascending into heaven, again, if you actually did a bit of research and read the prophecies you would understand why.

Why not operate an open door policy? Surely he can see people are doing good on Earth right now? Why doesn't he lend them a hand? It's not like Heaven can get full is it? Everyone nice should be up there! Why are we even down here when God already knows who is good and who is evil?

Jason2 said:
The stage is not yet set for his return, but it is building. Prophecies are being fulfilled right now.

I'll put the kettle on. What's building by the way? He's a carpenter so I'm gonna guess it's a REALLY big staircase.

Edit: Apologies to JoeF1, misquoted you.

ringo747 · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:41

Conscript said:
Well current theories place the age of our observable universe at about 13bn years old.

Isn't this at odds to the creationist theory about the universe being created by God ~6000 years ago?

dirtychinchilla said:
Well if God created the earth and the universe, how did the big bang create the univrse? They both give different reasons for the same thing, which is an evident conflict.

It depends which religious group you refer to. Christian fundamentalists in America (and many everyday Christians) deny the factuality of evolution.

To me this only seems that science v young earth creationists are at odds. This is vastly different from claiming that theism in general is at war with science.

Many theistic scientists fully accept all the facts of big bang cosmology without issue.

dirtychinchilla · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:42

And evolution?

ringo747 · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:44

dirtychinchilla said:
And evolution?

The same. I've talked to a number of theists who claim that they have no issues between their faith and all scientific discoveries to date.

Jason2 · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:44

It's not the theists who reject the big bang, but rather the atheists. They wish to maintain the universe is eternal so there's no possibility of a creator. However, with strong evidence of the universe coming into existence, that argument is slowly fading.

Conscript · 4 Mar 2013 at 18:45

Yamahahahahaha said:
I'll put the kettle on. What's building by the way? He's a carpenter so I'm gonna guess it's a REALLY big staircase.

(You've quoted Jason as Joe btw)