Not at all....if I had some definitive position I would give it...it isn't as if I haven't given controversial or gone against the consensus before. The fact is I simply do not know and as elmarko points out, assigning a value to that has no measurable data is a fools errand.
Anyone ever become an atheist after believing?
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Not at all....if I had some definitive position I would give it...it isn't as if I haven't given controversial or gone against the consensus before. The fact is I simply do not know and as elmarko points out, assigning a value to that has no measurable data is a fools errand.
Indeed, it is relatively recent in religion also....the really ancient religions had there traditions and rituals, however they generally held personal interaction with God as that, personal.
I agree, transparency is very important as is the ability to determine for yourself from all the available evidence, texts, history, and so on...it's partially why I work in the field I do.
Yep that's the "official" scapegoat.
However as far as I am aware abrahimic god has all those characteristics. Otherwise he would not be supernatural.
Castiel, any time I try to have a conversation with you, you accuse me of words I never uttered, you have a very defensive stance whenever anybody tries to talk to you.
You keep accusing me of forcing your to confirm my views which I never even proposed, then you accuse me of forcing you to commit to something?
Now instead of understanding that you've been using straw man logical fallacy you go further and say that I call you immature because you somehow disagree with me. That is against putting words in my mouth, I never said that.
All of that is remarkably immature instead of discussing the subject you keep using those cheap tactics.
Again, could you stop accusing me of something I never did?
I stated my view and wanted to see your view on the subject. If it wasn't for all the false accusations and defensive manner in which you replied it could have been a civil and pleasant conversation.
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Those are but characteristics however....it doesn't fulfil the requirements of a definitive and universally accepted definition of God with which we can make any assertions as to a definitive existence or not...therefore I remain in the same position.
I disagree...I have only replied to you in good faith.
Were you not assigning percentages and values to whether God exists or not in order to show that my position is somehow biased? I made no false accusations..I made no accusations., you asked me to commit to a defined position either in the negative or positive (binary) on the concept of God, you also asked me to make a defined binary decision on whether the Abrahamic God exists or not.....I replied to your questions in good faith, I'm sorry if my answers were not what you were looking for, but they are indicative of my current opinion.
Again, I disagree my position is a logical strawman...and forgive me, but you did state that I was incapable of having a mature conversation...which by implication is assuming I am immature in doing so...the accusation is yours, not mine.
As I have said, I answered in good faith, I am sorry you think it is immature and cheap, but it is my considered answer to your questions.
I am not accusing you of anything that is not in your posts.
I am not interested in such a conversation whereby I have to retort or defend myself against this kind of debate...I have tried to give you honest answers to your questions, so I see no further point in continuing this line of debate unless you have specific and relevant questions that relate to the topic rather than your opinion of me personally...I reiterate, I respect your views even if I disagree with them.
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Characteristic that define him for 55% of population. I never asked you for universal definition, I asked what you thought of that specific defining characteristics and whether sufficient evidence that such characteristics are impossible would in your eyes be sufficient to make any leaning.
These are you quotes which you accuse me of:
Never did I imply such a thing.
What commitment are you even talking about here? Again you're accusing me of forcing you to commit to something. Which, again, I never did.
I never said you're immature because you supposedly disagree with me, I said you're immature for the "conform" and "commit" comments above. and now this comment actually as you accuse me of calling you immature for wrong reasons.
Percentage thing was a question to see your view, I was not trying to prove anything to you with percentages, you're putting words in my mouth yet again.
What I was commenting was my view on the subject that to me agnosticism sounds just as biased as anything else out there.
It was a nice conversation until you went defensive.
I already explained that you did.
Neither am I interested now, ever since you went defensive you can't seem to stop. As for
Same goes to you, always has, I think it was pointless of you to resort to putting words in my mouth though.
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The God of Jesus, Moses, Mohammad, Adam, Noah etc all believed in Monothiasm, they never attributed themselves to being the Son of God. Maybe someone later came along and scribbled that into the scriptures or someone took it out from context, but God is one who has no siblings.
So the answer is No!
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But we do have data:
Instances of humans with superpowers: 0
Instances of humans being dead for 3 days and resurecting: 0
Contradictions/inaccuracies in the bible: too numerous to mention
Verifiable evidence of a personal god: none
Claiments: Primative, ignorant, superstitious, wrong about many things
Conclusion:
The claim that Jesus was the son of god is highly unlikely to be true.
If you could supply definitive proof that such characteristics are impossible, then it would indeed influence my opinion on that particular aspect of the God Concept as it relates to those belief systems that attribute such characteristics....it would however not impact that much on my overall position of whether God exists or not as even the three characteristics you mention are not universal and also are not definitive of the Abrahamic concept of One God..they are attributed characteristics, but they do not a definition make.
I am not going to get into a quote v quote debate....I have said this several times..I have answered you in good faith, anything I have said relates directly to posts you made in response to me. If at any point I misunderstood your question or intent then it would have been pertinent to either explain further or rephrase the question....instead you accused me of making false accusations and holding immature debate and cheap tactics to avoid the question asked....I am not being defensive, I am defending my position, which is what debate entails after all.
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That question was not meant to impact your overall position, I wanted to see whether that'd be sufficient in that instance and as you said it would, so that's all I wanted to hear.
You kidding me, still trying it? After your first wrongful accusation I said that I never implied that you should confirm to my view and asked you not to put words in my mouth, so I made clear that I never wanted you to confirm to my views and then you go ahead and reply to me with further accusations that you found it depressing that I want to you to commit to something? Are you even reading my comments?
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I am reading everything you are saying to me. You say I have made accusations that I don't agree were not relevant to the questions asked, equally with the "putting words in your mouth" I responded only to your posts as I understood them, however if you wish to rephrase any question that you feel I have misunderstood then I will endeavour to answer it in good faith and with the best of my ability.
The God of Jesus, Moses, Mohammad, Adam, Noah etc all believed in Monothiasm, they never attributed themselves to being the Son of God. Maybe someone later came along and scribbled that into the scriptures or someone took it out from context, but God is one who has no siblings.
So the answer is No!
What does God having no siblings have to do with anything?
You're not reading, you assumed a defensive position and deliberately misreading my comments. Nowhere did I say I want you to conform* to my views yet you kept pushing that idea. I can't exactly have a nice conversation with a person who magically sees what was never written.
Edit: In any case all questions have been answered, if it wasn't for you impolite way to end each comment perhaps it wouldn't have been such an ordeal.
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You're not reading, you assumed a defensive position and deliberately misreading my comments. Nowhere did I say I want you to conform* to my views yet you kept pushing that idea. I can't exactly have a nice conversation with a person who magically sees what was never written.
You asked me to apply my reason and knowledge to discern whether the Christian/Islamic God has a 50/50 chance of existence or non-existence....I took this to be a request to commit to a particular position as the option you gave me was a binary one...it also formed the basis of your viewpoint on the biased nature of my opinion given the assumption that such a position would negate any consideration of non-existence.
I answered this in good faith, I gave the reason why I disagreed with the attribution of set values and also that I felt you were trying to make me commit to a position (a binary one) that I did not and do not accept.
I did not magically see anything, or deliberately misread what you asked....as I said a couple of times now, if you feel I have misunderstood anything you have asked then please rephrase the question.....
As for being impolite, I was not the one who used such terminology as immature, I'm sorry but I think you are being pretty unfair in how you are conducting yourself, particularly as I answered your initial questions fully and without rancour, you then asked a narrower question that required a binary decision, one I am unable to make, equally with the incomplete definition of God, I answered this fully initially, and again you narrowed the definition in order to for me to make another binary decision, again one that I am unable to make.
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I asked whether it could in your view, at no point did I say this is my view, as will it stay binary or will you lean or what is your posiiton, I was trying to see your perspective and at no point did I "force" you, I asked whether you think it is possible. You once again are putting words into my mouth instead of taking what I said at a face value.
Yes, I think it is extremely immature and cheap to accuse others of something they never did and on such basis discredit their character to do that instead of having a pleasant conversation.
I am exhausted, you keep trying to push something that never happened, could you stop that?
This is your comment and is a flat out lie.
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I'd personally be more interested in anybody who came a believer after being an atheist since the original title, along with it's very many responses, becomes somewhat predictable
Edit: Here are a few
Author Anne Rice (of "Interview with a Vampire" fame.)
Author C.S. Lewis (of "Narnia" fame.)
Reporter Lee Strobel.
Atheist Philosopher Antony Flew (though Flew is a deist.)
Philosopher Mortimer J. Adler.
Journalist Malcom Muggeridge.
Nobel Laureate Sigrid Undset.
There are many more. They're not hard to find.
Geneticist Francis Collins.
Biologist Alister McGrath.
Biologist George R. Price
Biologist Mark Eastman
Not that interesting though. You start getting old, you fear death, you look for answers that don't include you ending.
I am not sure what your intent is, so I will state this categorically....I answered your questions in good faith...at no point did I make any claims or statements that I feel are unfounded as I understood the questions asked of me...if you feel otherwise then I apologise but it remains that my opinion was fully explained in my first post to you....I feel you were trying to get me to make up my mind on something that I explained I was still considering and in no position to take any definitive position on, I am still unsure as to why....I took everything you said at what I thought was face value and answered you...you continue to call me immature and using cheap tactics against you, I dispute this..equally I have be amicable throughout and remain so....I even asked you several times to rephrase any question that you felt I misunderstood..instead you continued this line of debate instead. I'm sorry if you feel slighted, but I feel that I have treated you fairly and have offered ample opportunity for you to explain or rephrase where I may have misunderstood you. At no time did I discredit your character..I made absolutely sure you knew I respected you and your opinion.
If you stop with the unnecessary badgering.
I disagree. I feel that you were trying to get me to commit to a position that conforms to the binary position you were proposing....again, if I misunderstood the question, then please feel free to rephrase it...it is not as if I did not already admit there may have been some misunderstanding and requested you ask those questions you feel I misunderstood again....instead you have accused me of immaturity and now telling lies....
I don't think this is productive tbh and I am unsure as to your intent so I will leave this...if you wish to ask me any other questions relating to the topic then feel free, I will answer them as best I can, and if I feel there is some ambiguity or underlying context I will endeavour to clarify with you in future as to avoid any misunderstanding.
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At no point did I do that.
What you said here was:
That is a flat out lie. Show me the quote that somehow is forcing you to conform.
All I ask is that you stop lying about things that never happened yet you keep pushing that I somehow forced you, this is insulting to me and I previously quoted the wrongful accusation. And now you're calling my plea for you to stop putting words into my mouth as badgering.
Leave me alone please, stop harassing me with things that never happened.
Jesus Christ, never did I say that, you're imagining it and pestering me about it. I have said many times that I never meant that, I confirmed that I never meant that yet STILL you feel that way. If this is not immature and rude then I do not know what is.
I have already explained why I thought this. In my previous post which you quoted no less..I even gave you another opportunity to rephrase and clarify.
You continue to insult me..I am not insulting you, in fact quite the contrary I have explained and given you the opportunity to do likewise...Increasingly it appears your motives in continuing this are not all they seem, apologies if I am mistaken.
That is easy...quit calling me names and stop posting.