Bedroom tax

LordSplodge · 10 Mar 2013 at 15:48

scorza said:
What about hope?

Free hope? To go with the free Emergency services and free food?

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Define a lot and link a source for the relative number as a percentage of the UK.

And I mean a decent source not a party that has a vested interest in it.

Give me an unbiased source that says they aren't all freeloaders living in luxury with Sky TV and plasma TVs.

Alas for both of us getting statistics isn't easy. The situation isn't as black and white as a lot of people like to make out.

scorza · 10 Mar 2013 at 15:52

LordSplodge said:
Free hope? To go with the free Emergency services and free food?

I just think that all the things on Lord-Jaffa's list, you also get by being sent to prison.

LordSplodge · 10 Mar 2013 at 15:54

scorza said:
I just think that all the things on Lord-Jaffa's list, you also get by being sent to prison.

Bring back Debtors Prison and Workhouses from the Victorian era. Problems solved.

Jeez, I should be an MP.

fez · 10 Mar 2013 at 15:57

LordSplodge said:
Free hope? To go with the free Emergency services and free food?

Give me an unbiased source that says they aren't all freeloaders living in luxury with Sky TV and plasma TVs.

Alas for both of us getting statistics isn't easy. The situation isn't as black and white as a lot of people like to make out.

Its not black and white but what about all the people who work and have just as little if not less that those on benefits. My issue is that in my view we are looking at the wrong issue entirely. We have a problem with the regressive nature of a system that provides for those without a desire to contribute.

Having children is not a career. It should be the result of a strong family unit with good values. Plenty on benefits fit into that group but they are usually not the ones complaining. People are frustrated that while cuts are hitting everyone else, people on benefits are considered above the cuts. The amount people receive is plenty if they live frugally. My parents had very little but made it go a long way so I find it rather hard to feel for those who don't meet the government half way.

The logical conclusion to this argument is that by increasing benefits by 20% you would make everything better because its obviously all about the money.

Amp34 · 10 Mar 2013 at 16:08

Dave85 said:
My nextdoor neighbor will be affected by this and its pretty despicable really he has been waiting years for a 1 bedroom flat or bungalow since his mother passed as feels the place is too big for him. I am his carer basically and we even offered to rent some place private but with housing benefit but the council refused and said stay put as they have no where available, and now he will be charged for the privilege.

Genius idea to attack the weak and disabled knowing they wont really fight back.

has he looked into sharing with others? A three bedroomed council house could house three single people.

Amp34 · 10 Mar 2013 at 16:22

LordSplodge said:
I'm not being clever. I'm simple pointing out that there are thousands of families in poverty in the UK.

I have not idea what your odd list is all about though.

The number of people homeless is increasing at an alarming rate and as for your point about relative poverty. It is fine to say that can be a matter of 'opinion' - unless you happen to be in that situation. It is too easy to look down on these people and judge them as having acceptable levels of living when in reality they live out horrible lives.

A lot of these people eek out lives only ever on the bottom rung of Maslow's hierarch of needs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs How can they ever dream of getting self esteem or lack of prejudice when vast swathes of society sees them as freeloading scum?

The big problem we have is exponential growth... Our whole society exists around the premice of exponential growth:

Exponential growth of population to look after the elderly
Exponential growth of the economy to keep it afloat.

Its unsustainable and needs to be changed. We have already put massive strain on out environment in the UK and the same is happening around the world. Until we can sort kut this issue we are always going to have these problems. Homelessness is in part due to the cost of housing, cost of housing in part due to lack of housing, lack of housing due go lack of space and due to an exponential rise in population over the last 100 years.

Unfortunately how do we solve that? Wenedd more and more young people each generation look after the older generation...

DampDog · 10 Mar 2013 at 16:32

Amp34 said:
has he looked into sharing with others? A three bedroomed council house could house three single people.

How many strangers do you share your home with? I know that's being flippant but I always find it odd that people are quite happy to have other people jump through hoops and have all sorts of restrictions and demands made of them so long as it's not at their doorstep or doesn't apply to them.

I wonder how many people would kick off if the government said if you have a spare room we will make you rent it out to us, because we don't have enough homes.. I doubt many would relish the opportunity to share the bathroom with 'Stinky Pete' in the morning for the greater good and reducing the deficit

Also many housing associations have restrictions on shared tenancy, there is even a bill going through parliament at the moment designed to restrict sub-letting in secure tenancy properties.

http://www.publications.parliament....2-2013/0055/lbill_2012-20130055_en_2.htm#l1g1

Dave85 · 10 Mar 2013 at 16:52

Amp34 said:
has he looked into sharing with others? A three bedroomed council house could house three single people.

As he has disabilities he could not live with other strangers it just wouldnt work. But as above he should have no need to live with randoms when he can perfectly support himself with help from a carer like myself. The problem is I will now need to make his budget stretch even more due to an unfair tax that is outwith his control :confused:

Amp34 · 10 Mar 2013 at 17:00

Me? None currently. I spent 5 years in two locations sharing with strangers and was looking to move in with a few strangers up until recently as i now spend most of my time at my GFs house (with some at my parents). Its standard practice for most single people between 18 and about 40 who don't get housing benefit in London.

Its not something I necessarily want to do but its the only way I can afford to actually live near to where I work when in single.

Currently (and I admit this may only be a peculiar London problem) we have a situation where those with no earnings/ low earnings can live in central London on their own, whereas those that make more than the benefit limit have to either commute in an hour or have to spend half their salary on a room in a shared house. Now that doesn't seem right to me...

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 10 Mar 2013 at 17:03

LordSplodge said:
Give me an unbiased source that says they aren't all freeloaders living in luxury with Sky TV and plasma TVs.

Alas for both of us getting statistics isn't easy. The situation isn't as black and white as a lot of people like to make out.

It doesnt work like that, your the one claiming lots of people etc not me, so you prove it.

Else its just guesswork on your part.

Amp34 · 10 Mar 2013 at 17:09

Dave85 said:
As he has disabilities he could not live with other strangers it just wouldnt work. But as above he should have no need to live with randoms when he can perfectly support himself with help from a carer like myself. The problem is I will now need to make his budget stretch even more due to an unfair tax that is outwith his control

well in which case those that aren't disabled can share, opening up a single bedroomed flat for him to move in to. Ideally there can be some leeway (i don't necessarily agree with the tax either, some local authority and leeway would be better).

Lord-Jaffa · 10 Mar 2013 at 17:37

LordSplodge said:
Free hope? To go with the free Emergency services and free food?

Give me an unbiased source that says they aren't all freeloaders living in luxury with Sky TV and plasma TVs.

Alas for both of us getting statistics isn't easy. The situation isn't as black and white as a lot of people like to make out.

You have yet to prove your point that poverty in the uk is widespread, or even what poverty consitutes here. I have given a small example of services and human needs, not just the basic ones, that are easily and readily available for every single citizen. You believe self worth esteem and hope for people to be above the poverty line? I'm sorry but those are earned by the individual, not handed out with your weekly benifit payment.

DampDog · 10 Mar 2013 at 17:52

Amp34 said:
Currently (and I admit this may only be a peculiar London problem) we have a situation where those with no earnings/ low earnings can live in central London on their own, whereas those that make more than the benefit limit have to either commute in an hour or have to spend half their salary on a room in a shared house. Now that doesn't seem right to me...

No it isn't right it's a mad situation, if I were in your position I would feel equally aggrieved (London is odd anyway) But that's in part due to decades of under investment in social housing that have helped fuel inflated property prices. Landlords know they have a captive audience, so to speak, so hike rents at every opportunity.

But I find the the notion of pushing people around like cattle and schemes that are designed to take money from those at the bottom pretty unscrupulous. We now have a mad situation where folk and the government are paying vastly over inflated rents because successive governments couldn't be bothered to build any social housing. That has turned into a disaster as we are sitting in the middle of what seems to be a never ending recession. Now fewer and fewer people are in the position to afford even a modest home.

Bear · 10 Mar 2013 at 18:01

DampDog said:
How many strangers do you share your home with? I know that's being flippant but I always find it odd that people are quite happy to have other people jump through hoops and have all sorts of restrictions and demands made of them so long as it's not at their doorstep or doesn't apply to them.

People in the private sector have been sharing for years, in fact I am a lodger in Edinburgh where I work during the week which helps my landlady meet her cost of living.

Literally every student in the UK that studies away from home shares a house as do many working professionals. Admittedly it only really works for single people.

derk · 10 Mar 2013 at 18:38

Bear said:
Literally every student in the UK that studies away from home shares a house

Obviously they would, they are kids after all, when I was at Uni I shared a house with 2 other guys and it was an absolute nightmare.
Nothing ever got done, they had obviously (up to that point) had everything done for them, it was disgusting.
There was not enough single occupancy properties available on campus (sounds familiar).
Of course all the foreign students got into the halls :rolleyes:

, but that was 20 years ago, may be it's changed.

DampDog · 10 Mar 2013 at 18:40

Bear said:
People in the private sector have been sharing for years, in fact I am a lodger in Edinburgh where I work during the week which helps my landlady meet her cost of living.

Literally every student in the UK that studies away from home shares a house as do many working professionals. Admittedly it only really works for single people.

Sharing is fine if it's your choice, and for students in particular it's more often than not a stepping stone towards something else.

I just find it odd that the folk who are potentially right at the bottom of societies pile are starting to be targeted and give up a disproportionate amount of what little they have in the name of "Austerity" They haven't created the mess we now find ourselves in, they have been swept along by the system that is in place. While people are quite prepared to turn a blind eye to huge bank bonuses that are still being paid out almost daily. That just doesn't sit well with me.

Meanwhile come April the 50% top tax rate will be cut to 45% for those earning above £150K. So much for sharing the burden equally

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21715167

Bear · 10 Mar 2013 at 19:26

DampDog said:
Sharing is fine if it's your choice, and for students in particular it's more often than not a stepping stone towards something else.

I just find it odd that the folk who are potentially right at the bottom of societies pile are starting to be targeted and give up a disproportionate amount of what little they have in the name of "Austerity" They haven't created the mess we now find ourselves in, they have been swept along by the system that is in place. While people are quite prepared to turn a blind eye to huge bank bonuses that are still being paid out almost daily. That just doesn't sit well with me.

I don't disagree with you in that it is disgusting that the poor are being pushed when there really aren't an alternative for a lot of them, and I have already said as much earlier in the thread.

That said, there are already many working people that share their homes because they have to, not because they want to. My landlady rents me a room not because she wants someone in her home but because it helps her make ends meet.

DampDog · 10 Mar 2013 at 19:50

Bear said:
I don't disagree with you in that it is disgusting that the poor are being pushed when there really aren't an alternative for a lot of them, and I have already said as much earlier in the thread.

That said, there are already many working people that share their homes because they have to, not because they want to. My landlady rents me a room not because she wants someone in her home but because it helps her make ends meet.

That's very true, many many people are really feeling the pinch and considering how much we all collectively pay, we deserve better. Millions of pounds get waisted each year on our behalf. Dodgy computer systems, never ending overhaul of the NHS which has become backdoor privatisation, overseas aid. Plus the UK are like the nutter in the pub, first sniff of a fight and we are landing the troops. It's won't be long before we have two new aircraft carriers with no planes to put on them due to prematurely binning off all the harriers and adopting F35's that won't be ready for months possibly years. Some defence contracts are so late and over budget it's laughable

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-weapons-projects-running-woefully-late.html

I just feel there is more than the usual amount of 'smoke and mirrors' going on at the moment. With many of these measure being passed off under the "Austerity" heading when they are actually nothing of the sort.

Resident · 10 Mar 2013 at 20:41

Will people please stop calling it a tax. It's not a tax at all. It's merely being called that by ignorant people and the media to sensationalise it and make it sound 100x worse than it is.

C64 · 10 Mar 2013 at 23:48

Wouldn't surprise me if this pushed up the rental cost of smaller places as the landlords will know the councils will have no choice but to house people in them.

In an ideal world nobody should be allowed to own more than a few residential properties but that's never going to happen of course.

The true problem lies there is it okay to own housing and rent purely for profit or to make a living from it ? surely there should be a cap on the amount of houses one person can rent out.