Draw calls and the future of PC gaming ports

Spektor · 2 Apr 2013 at 06:19

This was something posted by a game developer years ago about the limitations of DirectX 9. DirectX 11 doesn't suffer this issue and if I remember I think some fancy driver trickery eliminated it on DX9 also.

spirits247 · 2 Apr 2013 at 08:15

Spektor said:
This was something posted by a game developer years ago about the limitations of DirectX 9. DirectX 11 doesn't suffer this issue and if I remember I think some fancy driver trickery eliminated it on DX9 also.

They are still whining about it now when they are looking ahead to next gen games, which is why I posted this thread. Probably because console ports will be many times cheaper and easier to manage from new consoles if they don't have to optimize draw calls on the PC.

Or it may be a non-issue. I'm sure PC's will power past it just like they always have.

Ripjaw · 2 Apr 2013 at 09:26

Biohazard said:
Go on then.. what's a draw cell?

+1

WingZero30 · 2 Apr 2013 at 09:50

bee said:
yup total non issue and very old article

pc gtx 680 top, ps4 bottom

lol it looks like PS4 version is half finished with lots of texture details missing plus less particles flying about

Calin Banc · 2 Apr 2013 at 21:51

spirits247 said:
They are still whining about it now when they are looking ahead to next gen games, which is why I posted this thread. Probably because console ports will be many times cheaper and easier to manage from new consoles if they don't have to optimize draw calls on the PC.

Or it may be a non-issue. I'm sure PC's will power past it just like they always have.

On DX9 draw calls were made using only one thread from the CPU but with DX11 I think you can multithread that to some extent (perhaps even with DX10, I'm not sure). Don't know though if the new API can actually overcome this limitation or just make some breathing room until the ceiling is hit again.

spirits247 · 2 Apr 2013 at 23:10

I think it will be interesting to see just what will be the limit if any on next gen console ports - our VRAM on cards eg (2GB vs the 8GB unified) and/or the draw calls CPU limit of a PC running DirectX API vs consoles. Or if we have enough power to deal with next gen console ports already.

A few people asked what Draw calls are (taken from Google):

A draw call is a function used by a program to instruct the GPU to draw something. In games this is done once per frame, normally lots and lots of draw calls per frame (sort-of roughly analogous to your monitors refresh rate). In general you have one draw call per texture file used per object, but it may be more than that if you specify particular material types, ahh, check that, let's call it "qualities" so we SU folks are clear it's something different from SU materials, to influence the appearance of the texture. Such "qualities" might be gloss, brightness, various types of finish, like metal, rubber, wood, etc., and then whether there is an alpha channel present of not (transparency).

Therefore more objects and complexity, more textures equals more objects on screen so more draw calls per frame.

I am no expert, just thought it would make for an interesting discussion as we all just assume that many of our PC's are way more powerful than next gen APU consoles - which they are hardware wise, apart from VRAM on our cards and DirectX draw call limitations which is effectively CPU limited.

Rozzy85 · 3 Apr 2013 at 00:27

Without going into detail a draw call is the CPU telling the GPU to render something.

Less draw calls: Less scene complexity, more GPU limited
More draw calls: More scene complexity, more CPU limited

More draw calls aren't bad if used right but if used inefficiently can put more load on the CPU causing it to become a bottleneck against the GPU.

For example, you have a scene with 10 crates. You can draw all the crates with one draw call but that would make function and interaction limited. They could only be static and not moved around, can not be broken and would all have to be the same material type (all wood, all metal, etc). If all drawn separate you could move them about (pile on top of each other), break them and could be a mixture of wood and metal.

It's more complicated than that but that's a simply way of explaining it.

A console will be more efficient at processing draw calls than a PC due to it's architecture but doesn't have the raw power to be faster. The overhead on the PC probably isn't enough to cause any concern and is most likely marginal.

Rroff · 3 Apr 2013 at 00:38

Thats a good way of explaining it (the 10 crates).

On a more complicated level tho you can get quite a bit of interactivity out of a single surface system whilest still retaining most of the performance capabilities of the single surface system - this kind of thing is often what seperates the good programmers from the ones who trained for a career in programming

Rozzy85 · 3 Apr 2013 at 00:50

I agree, there are ways to get around it and still get the same interaction. Dota 2 employs a clever way to get around the player cosmetic customisation system without the burden of additional draw calls.

rippling · 3 Apr 2013 at 02:25

Draw calls or not , i wouldnt even be the slightest bit worries that the PS4 or 720 will be more powerful than the majority of the PC`s on this forum . more powerful than a notebook yes , unless your talking gaming notebooks.
Simple fact is the PC using brute power will outgun any of the new consoles. look at the U4 demo above for proof the 680gtx is shoulders above the ps4 Version.

Calin Banc · 3 Apr 2013 at 10:18

spirits247 said:
I think it will be interesting to see just what will be the limit if any on next gen console ports - our VRAM on cards eg (2GB vs the 8GB unified)

Those 8GB aren't much by PC standards, where a typical gaming system (for today standards) may have 10-11GB total.

They'll probably split that between system RAM and vRAM. Textures don't only take "space" into vRAM but also intro RAM and if you add other values/characteristics on top of that, the limit can be reached without much of a problem. For instance, GTA 4 EFLC can go as high as 2,3-2,4GB RAM used and another 1-1,2vRAM. Skyrim goes to around 2GB RAM and 2GB vRAM or more if you mode it and so on.

UE 4 Demo looks worse already on PS4 than on PC so unless we get crappy ports, there should be no problem in running future games on our rigs with high visuals.

V4NT0M · 3 Apr 2013 at 10:32

This Unreal 4 demo thing has really thrown a pooper into my excitement for the PS4...

Calin Banc · 3 Apr 2013 at 10:40

If they want 60FPS@1080p somethings gotta go, aka visual quality. 30FPS@720p would be a whole different thing.

rippling · 3 Apr 2013 at 10:46

I dont understand people arguments or fears hear TBH , why do people think that when we get new games on the new consoles that all of a sudden the PC will have poorer visuals etc?
Do people honestly think that once the new ps4 etc is released it will be anywhere near as powerfull as a gaming pc .... already its meantioned that if epic had dropped the res to 720p it would be a whole different story? its laughable that that would even have to happen on consoles thats due in 2013.
Sony is banging on about 4k tv`s etc and already new console has to compromise on GFX quality tut tut

Calin Banc · 3 Apr 2013 at 11:00

rippling said:
I dont understand people arguments or fears hear TBH , why do people think that when we get new games on the new consoles that all of a sudden the PC will have poorer visuals etc?
Do people honestly think that once the new ps4 etc is released it will be anywhere near as powerfull as a gaming pc .... already its meantioned that if epic had dropped the res to 720p it would be a whole different story? its laughable that that would even have to happen on consoles thats due in 2013.
Sony is banging on about 4k tv`s etc and already new console has to compromise on GFX quality tut tut

It's not the fact that PC will have poor visuals due to that, but because without horse power under the hood, PCs can't reach the same visual quality and it will need to drop down settings. But it's not the case of course while consoles have those HW characteristics.

PS 4 and XBOX may support 4k resolutions in the same way current gen consoles support 1080p. A little bit irrelevant.

For actual/native 4k res. they'll need in those boxes 2xTitans or something like that, lol.

NirK · 3 Apr 2013 at 11:35

But even a top of the range PC which is out now is about 4x the power of a PS4 which is not even released yet. I can pretty much guarantee that if you have a 4Ghz ivy bridge quad core, 8gb ram and a 7970 or something then you will run any PS4 game at much better graphics than the PS4. And its not even been released yet... Especially if the PS4 actually runs games at 1080p instead of 720p

Radiance · 3 Apr 2013 at 11:52

I can remember back when the PS3 and XBox 360 were released, how the PC was about to die off and console gaming was the future...
PC gaming will be fine for the forseeable future, we've been through this dance before when things didn't look so pretty. I would like to see the new consoles but I'm not worried about the future, we will still get badly made console ports for those who want them, though the reqs might be a bit higher.

NirK · 3 Apr 2013 at 12:13

PC wont die it will be exactly the same as it is now except we will be getting up to date graphics instead of graphics ported from 8 year old hardware.

Defiant306 · 3 Apr 2013 at 13:31

PC gaming has never been for the masses, that's what consoles are for and now mobile based devices. That wont ever change in my view, even with cloud based services.

In my view PC is for the Pro gamer

Calin Banc · 4 Apr 2013 at 09:35

PS4 praised as "perfect gaming PC" by Epic VP

"I think it's a very smart move on Sony's behalf to build this sort of enhanced PC architecture and then put so much in it," Rein told CVG. "The kind of stuff that they announced that they're doing, the level of convenience and things like that... they're making a really perfect gaming PC."

Rein seemed very excited by the PlayStation 4's 8 GB of GDDR5 memory and the console's digital download options.

"The other exciting thing is that Windows for most people is tied to about 2 GB of addressable memory space. This really opens up beyond what most PCs can do, because most PCs are running a 32-bit version of Windows."

"I've always said that the things in the next-generation that aren't just brute force hardware are all about the service and simplicity of the experience - the things that make it as fun and easy to get a PS4 game as it is to get a game on your iPad."

Considering the difference between a gaming PC and PC 4 shown on the previous page in UE4, couldn't be more ironic, lol.

Besides, logical fallacies must be "the go around card" or the norm in the industry considering digital download and gaming PCs.