Islamic Centre destroyed in 'racist attack'

[Random Guy]

The Crusades took place over 900 years ago so to compare killings of Christians today with the killing of Muslims back then would, in my opinion, be to say that those countries are 900 years behind us in civilised terms. This is not the case.

The Crusades are in the past or would you condone the killing of Russians because of the Crimean War? You don't see Scots killing Englishmen just because of the many invasions over the centuries do you? It is farcical to see justice in killing someone in the here and now because of what their ancestors may or may not have done centuries ago.

You are aware the crusades happened 1000 years ago right? Christianity seems to have evolved somewhat...that kinda shizzle doesn't fly these days.

Unless apparently you're in a nice tolerant country like Kazakhstan or Nigeria as stated.

You are aware of course, that to the people who live in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan - in fact, any country where there is and has been ongoing recent Western Military Intervention - that the concept of a Crusade is still very much relevant?

Of course, you aren't just someone who reads a history book, closes it, and doesn't correlate it to current events. Right? RIGHT?

It seems that to a lot of Muslims, the whole world is a battlefield, sadly.

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/01/168349318/multiple-feuds-bring-a-record-year-of-violence-to-karachi

And I think this would've been much more likely to be front page, headline news if someone had actually been killed. I know what the building represents and its significance and there's very little doubt in my mind that this is a hate crime, but really, it's just a building.

It also seems that there is also a distinct lack of ability to apply non-bigoted thinking to anything concerning the Muslim World, especially in the case of the mainstream-media infused, right-wing influenced average individual. Hence, your conflation of a violent political power struggle in a country on the brink (problems like instability, poverty, recession etc.) with the fact that "its da muzlims bruv", instead of realising that any country with a similar set of social and political problems, will have identical issues.

 

[RDM]

You are aware of course, that to the people who live in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan - in fact, any country where there is and has been ongoing recent Western Military Intervention - that the concept of a Crusade is still very much relevant?

None of them are religiously motivated conflicts. It does however suit an Islamist agenda to try and make them seem to be religiously motivated.

 

[eatcustard]

"we are to well educated to allow it"

Yes, evidently

maybe not me

 

[Craterloads]

None of them are religiously motivated conflicts. It does however suit an Islamist agenda to try and make them seem to be religiously motivated.

Guess you missed blairs and bush's revalations?

 

[dowie]

You are aware of course, that to the people who live in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan - in fact, any country where there is and has been ongoing recent Western Military Intervention - that the concept of a Crusade is still very much relevant?

Not particularly... at least not for lots of them. You ever been to any of those countries or are you just making stuff up?

There is occasional rhetoric, there is certainly plenty of rhetoric over here... though mostly the insurgents rely on good old fashioned bigotry/dislike or suspicion of others etc... and persuade people to target the 'infidels' etc... They're not joining an insurgency because of what they read in history class - they're joining an insurgency because the armed people present in their country have a different skin colour, culture and belief (or lack of it) in a different religion.

 

[RDM]

Guess you missed blairs and bush's revalations?

And there was me thinking it was all about the oil, make up your mind!

No Pope proclamation, no Crusade. Them's the rules.

Do you honestly think that conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan are religiously motivated crusades?

 

[Craterloads]

And there was me thinking it was all about the oil, make up your mind!

No Pope proclamation, no Crusade. Them's the rules.

Do you honestly think that conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan are religiously motivated crusades?

George bush and Tony Blair certainly thought so, given they were the leaders of each respective country.

President Jacques Chirac wanted to know what the hell President Bush had been on about in their last conversation. Bush had then said that when he looked at the Middle East, he saw "Gog and Magog at work" and the biblical prophecies unfolding. But who the hell were Gog and Magog? Neither Chirac nor his office had any idea. But they knew Bush was an evangelical Christian,

Tony Blair viewed his decision to go to war in Iraq and Kosovo as part of a "Christian battle", according to one of his closest political allies

The former Prime Minister's faith is claimed to have influenced all his key policy decisions and to have given him an unshakeable conviction that he was right.

 

[Random Guy]

Not particularly... at least not for lots of them. You ever been to any of those countries or are you just making stuff up?

I have not been to these countries but I have spoken to enough people from those regions to back up my statement.

And there was me thinking it was all about the oil, make up your mind!

No Pope proclamation, no Crusade. Them's the rules.

Do you honestly think that conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan are religiously motivated crusades?

Are you kidding? How did you miss the "God" link in Bush and Blair's recent memoirs/interviews?

And as Alan Greenspan has confirmed, Oil was certainly the main factor - but the Wars had to be marketed differently to the Murrican public so lots of talk about WMDs, Bush interjecting the word "Crusade" in a major political speech, and so on and on.

 

[dowie]

I have not been to these countries but I have spoken to enough people from those regions to back up my statement.

You've likely experienced some sampling bias... namely the only people you've even spoken to are already in the UK. Presumably they actually spoke English too?

Most insurgents are rather young and lack much in the way of Education - they kind of skipped high school...

 

[Craterloads]

Most insurgents are rather young and lack much in the way of Education - they kind of skipped high school...

Not particularly... at least not for lots of them. You ever been to any of those countries or are you just making stuff up?

 

[dowie]

Not particularly... at least not for lots of them. You ever been to any of those countries or are you just making stuff up?

I have yeah... Presumably you've just been to Pakistan?

 

[Craterloads]

I have yeah... Presumably you've just been to Pakistan?

Which of these countries have you been to then?

 

[dowie]

One of the others mentioned

 

[Craterloads]

One of the others mentioned

On what basis? and where? *If* you’ve only been to one does that qualify you to make such statements, especially after challenging someone else moments ago for making a similar statement (although he probably has a better insight than you do)

Where you out there interviewing insurgents?

 

[Biohazard]

And there was me thinking it was all about the oil, make up your mind!

No Pope proclamation, no Crusade. Them's the rules.

Do you honestly think that conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan are religiously motivated crusades?

It could be poorly described as such, this is a conflict that has never ceased to be since the Crusades really.

 

[Random Guy]

You've likely experienced some sampling bias... namely the only people you've even spoken to are already in the UK. Presumably they actually spoke English too?

Most insurgents are rather young and lack much in the way of Education - they kind of skipped high school...

You misunderstand - I did not meet these people in the UK, but while travelling in and around Europe and North Africa.

EDIT: And to clarify, I am in no position to say it is a commonly held view or to somehow speak with authority across probably hundreds of ethnic/tribal/religious groups, but I certainly can see how the concept of the Crusades can be and has been used as a potent argument against Western intervention in the Middle East.

 

[dowie]

Well given that he's met a small subset of people who live in the UK (edit - outside of these countries) its hardly a representative sample for obvious reasons. The situation on the ground is often far more complicated than you or the other poster probably appreciate with various tribal issues coming into play too. The idea that the insurgency is linked to some resentment over the crusades or even remotely linked to them is a tad ridiculous... yes that is rhetoric that is occasionally heard - especially from angry shouty pajama wearing nutters over here...

 

[Craterloads]

Well given that he's met a small subset of people who live in the UK (edit - outside of these countries) its hardly a representative sample for obvious reasons. The situation on the ground is often far more complicated than you or the other poster probably appreciate with various tribal issues coming into play too. The idea that the insurgency is linked to some resentment over the crusades or even remotely linked to them is a tad ridiculous... yes that is rhetoric that is occasionally heard - especially from angry shouty pajama wearing nutters over here...

What do you know about these tribal issues, you've never been to any of these countries. (That is the standard you set isn’t it?) The "insurgency" may very well be linked to the notion the battle is between Islam and the West (Christianity) it well documented too.

He said

that the concept of a Crusade is still very much relevant?

In these countries/

Given numerous polls taken in these countries, where a large percentage of people feel the war is against Islam as a whole it is hardly a surprising conclusion to come too.

 

[zenf]

It also seems that there is also a distinct lack of ability to apply non-bigoted thinking to anything concerning the Muslim World, especially in the case of the mainstream-media infused, right-wing influenced average individual. Hence, your conflation of a violent political power struggle in a country on the brink (problems like instability, poverty, recession etc.) with the fact that "its da muzlims bruv", instead of realising that any country with a similar set of social and political problems, will have identical issues.

Knee-jerk reaction much? I was responding to the statement "The only time you can kill in Islam is in self defense". Do you think the killings committed by shia and sunni Muslims in Karachi are all in self defence? That's the point I was making so take your straw man elsewhere.

 

[Random Guy]

Knee-jerk reaction much? I was responding to the statement "The only time you can kill in Islam is in self defense". Do you think the killings committed by shia and sunni Muslims in Karachi are all in self defence? That's the point I was making so take your straw man elsewhere.

Self-defence or "eye-for-an-eye", the cause of the violence was what I was trying to get at. Apologies for causing offence, but it gets hard to see the distinction between blanket statements and specific responses sometimes.