Poundland Girl Wins Forced Labour Ruling

[estebanrey]

Hence why I support a universal rather than a conditonal benefits system.

The problem with that is there isn't enough money currently to pay the needy a living amount, let alone giving everyone in the country it.

You would have to drastically change and revalue the currency to ever get to a situation where a government could afford to pay every single citizen a payment that is enough to live off.

And you can never really have a truly universal benefits system. Disabled people for example can incur some very unique and high expenses and obviously you can give abled bodied people it as well when they don't need it.

Nor is a universal system very efficient because you are setting up a system that taxes people and another that then just ends up giving some of it back, taking the 'admin' costs out in the process.

 

[Dolph]

The problem with that is there isn't enough money currently to pay the needy a living amount, let alone giving everyone in the country it.

You would have to drastically change and revalue the currency to ever get to a situation where a government could afford to pay every single citizen a payment that is enough to live off.

You would indeed, but those negotiations are much easier when the apply for everyone, rather than as a competition of interest groups.

And you can never really have a truly universal benefits system. Disabled people for example can incur some very unique and high expenses and obviously you can give abled bodied people it as well when they don't need it.

A universal system doesn't prevent compensating or rewarding certain events, it means that you apply those adjustments to everyone who qualifies without means testing etc. For the working disabled, it just increases the effective tax free allowance.

Nor is a universal system very efficient because you are setting up a system that taxes people and another that then just ends up giving some of it back, taking the 'admin' costs out in the process.

We already have an income tax system in place, so the change is in the admin costs of means testing. do you really think the admin costs for a universal benefit are higher than a means tested one?

 

[Dolph]

Do you believe moving further from universalism will ultimately lead to universalism?

I think (hope perhaps) that we are heading towards a fundamental rethink of the support structures back as it becomes clear that the existing model doesn't work. I hope we move to a more universal model as a result.

 

[Biohazard]

Would on a hope and a prayer be an appropriate phrase?

That's not resoundingly reassuring, especially given the absolute indifference shown for the effect pf this apparent pathway back to universalism.

It can't be partial or half-hearted.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

Define unfairly sanctioned? Most cases that seem to hit the press are about people who broke the rules but think they should be treated differently to other people who do the same thing, usually with an added appeal to emotion involving their children.

To be brutally honest this system is so ****ed, it's ****ed. It's actually almost funny in a twisted way... but IDS isn't helping fix it, I think he's making it worse if anything and costing people money too.

 

[Rofflay]

Yawn u know you are up against a titan of intellect when the GIF's come out.I actually thought for a second you could make sense and turn it into a pro arguement on why being born into slavery in 2013 is acceptable?

No doubt you are one of these mumsy boys who benefits fully from it.So come on give us a good reason on why you are against every human having access to food,water and shelter which is currently being denied to them under the benefits system?

 

[bazaarboy]

Yawn u know you are up against a titan of intellect when the GIF's come out.I actually thought for a second you could make sense and turn it into a pro arguement on why being born into slavery in 2013 is acceptable?

No doubt you are one of these mumsy boys who benefits fully from it.So come on give us a good reason on why you are against every human having access to food,water and shelter which is currently being denied to them under the benefits system?

are you describing conditions experienced by benefits claimants in the United Kingdom?

 

[Rofflay]

are you describing conditions experienced by benefits claimants in the United Kingdom?

If you lose your JSA or benefits by refusing to slave labour for your food in poundland then yes you will be in this situation.

What are you gonna do? Go fishing for a bit of food? Nope fishing is private in rivers with paying a yearly fee.What about shelter? Well if caught sleeping rough you will be picked up by the cops and thrown in a cell.

What else could go on the list that a human would need? I bet whatever it is it will be on the already owned by someone else list.Certain people out there think its ok to snigger at the way the system works though.They have no idea that once upon a time as a toddler they were only a parental accident away from becoming dependant on the state themselves.Take away inheritance and pretty much everyone becomes a slave of whoever owns the natural resources.You cannot live as a human without access to natural resources yet here in the UK how many people would get access to them if they had no money?

Therefor Slaves as benefits are only for people who are sick/looking for work.What if you are neither sick or looking for work and just want to live a little differently than everyone else? Yep you guessed it denied natural resources,denied benefits and will be starved to death on purpose for wanting to go against the system.

 

[estebanrey]

Yawn u know you are up against a titan of intellect when the GIF's come out.I actually thought for a second you could make sense and turn it into a pro arguement on why being born into slavery in 2013 is acceptable?

No doubt you are one of these mumsy boys who benefits fully from it.So come on give us a good reason on why you are against every human having access to food,water and shelter which is currently being denied to them under the benefits system?

Only when you tell me why you are misrepresenting my views via a strawman.

Do I think workfare is a perfectly executed, problem free scheme? No I don't, however I tend to side with whoever is spouting the least amount of rubbish. On this occasion, when people start using terms like "slavery" and "forced labour" it makes me want to turn into Karl Pilkington's alter-ego bull **** man.

Criticise the scheme, suggest alternatives and not only would I take you seriously, but I may even agree on some issues but count me out if you want to start likening doing a few weeks (or even months) at an Air Conditioned high street supermarket in return for a benefit hand out every month with people being kidnapped, sent over seas, chained up, whipped and expected to work 20 hours a day at gun point for their entire lives, justified by racial supremacy.

It's just as insult to those millions of people throughout history (and even today in some parts of the world) who were/are suffering actual slavery and makes a mockery of a potential good argument against workfare.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

Only when you tell me why you are misrepresenting my views via a strawman.

Do I think workfare is a perfectly executed, problem free scheme? No I don't, however I tend to side with whoever is spouting the least amount of rubbish. On this occasion, when people start using terms like "slavery" and "forced labour" it makes me want to turn into Karl Pilkington's alter-ego bull **** man.

Criticise the scheme, suggest alternatives and not only would I take you seriously, but I may even agree on some issues but count me out if you want to start likening doing a few weeks (or even months) at an Air Conditioned high street supermarket in return for a benefit hand out every month with people being kidnapped, sent over seas, chained up, whipped and expected to work 20 hours a day at gun point for their entire lives, justified by racial supremacy.

It's just as insult to those millions of people throughout history (and even today in some parts of the world) who were/are suffering actual slavery and makes a mockery of a potential good argument against workfare.

slavery [ˈsleɪvərɪ]
n
1. (Law) the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty, and fortune (Now this is kind of true but not entirely... however with no money and no ability to get a job they do have power over you)

 

[Rofflay]

I knew you simply cannot grasp it estebanrey.Does my brain work differently to right wing nutters or are you just devoid of any humanity? * comments removed.. Make your point but don't make it personal *


estebanrey logic is this: Unless someone is put in chains and kidnapped they are not a slave.


Regarding the laughable bit about air conditioning and the general conditions the slaves worked in thats down to the gap in morals and technology from your 1900's slaves in America to modern day.Disregard the treatment and conditions based on the advances we have made and put the core issues into context please.And black african slaves do not simply get to monopolise the word slavery.Infact here is an explanation of slavery.



slav·er·y (slv-r, slvr)
n. pl. slav·er·ies
1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household.
2.
a. The practice of owning slaves.
b. A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
3. The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified influence.
4. A condition of hard work and subjection: wage slavery.
slavery [ˈsleɪvərɪ]
n
1. (Law) the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty, and fortune
2. the subjection of a person to another person, esp in being forced into work
3. the condition of being subject to some influence or habit


Thats exactly what happens when you are born without access to natural resources or certain skills employers want.You are forced into 1 and 2 and made to go to poundland by the benefits office.But wait you are not a slave because you have the freedom to refuse to go to poundland and feed and house yourself! And how can you be a slave when they are not cracking whips right? Employment falls right under a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life.

Face it you are a slave you are just too dumb to realise it.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

I knew you simply cannot grasp it.Does my brain work differently or are you just devoid of any humanity?


estebanrey logic is this: Unless someone is put in chains and kidnapped they are not a slave.


Regarding the laughable bit about air conditioning and the general conditions the slaves worked in thats down to the gap in morals and technology from your 1900's slaves in America to modern day.Disregard the treatment and conditions based on the advances we have made and put the core issues into context please.And those people do not simply get to monopolise the word slavery.Infact here is an explanation of slavery.



slav·er·y (slv-r, slvr)
n. pl. slav·er·ies
1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household.
2.
a. The practice of owning slaves.
b. A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
3. The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified influence.
4. A condition of hard work and subjection: wage slavery.
slavery [ˈsleɪvərɪ]
n
1. (Law) the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty, and fortune
2. the subjection of a person to another person, esp in being forced into work
3. the condition of being subject to some influence or habit


Thats exactly what happens when you are born without access to natural resources or certain skills employers want.You are forced into 1 and 2 and made to go to poundland by the benefits office.

ha I posted same definition, seems to slip his logic though.

 

[v0n]

If you lose your JSA or benefits by refusing to slave labour for your food in poundland then yes you will be in this situation.
/bizarre ranting follows/

You seem to be missing important piece of this puzzle. This system is there to encourage you to stop being deadbeat and stop depending on JSA or benefits indefinitely. By actually going to work not only you can avoid this alleged "slave labour" but also guarantee for your own kids NOT to become this dreamt up "parental accident away from becoming dependant on the state" you are so afraid of. It couldn't be simpler. If you just start working for the upkeep of you and your family, none of you ever get any close to the situation where some so-and-so in a tie behind a desk tells any of you to go and straighten some items on Poundlands shelves for a while.

The only way you could argue against it is if you thought you were somehow special and it was your god given right to boink around on taxpayers money indefinitely and treat the rest of us as your pocket money piggy bank.

 

[GAC]

You seem to be missing important piece of this puzzle. This system is there to encourage you to stop being deadbeat and stop depending on JSA or benefits indefinitely. By actually going to work not only you can avoid this alleged "slave labour" but also guarantee for your own kids NOT to become this dreamt up "parental accident away from becoming dependant on the state" you are so afraid of. It couldn't be simpler. If you just start working for the upkeep of you and your family, none of you ever get any close to the situation where some so-and-so in a tie behind a desk tells any of you to go and straighten some items on Poundlands shelves for a while.

The only way you could argue against it is if you thought you were somehow special and it was your god given right to boink around on taxpayers money indefinitely and treat the rest of us as your pocket money piggy bank.

just they wont pay you the legal min wage for it though.

 

[Rofflay]

Beware my post first edit later lazyness though but yes i noticed it I find it really interesting though that he and most people i talk too have little interest even if what i stated is true.

I find it like putting a mouse in a lab enviroment and studying him as to why his brain works so different than mine.Im genuinely curious as to how right wingers manage to dodge facts about capitalism and slavery.They love to tell you that you have a choice, you cannot be a slave as you can choose not too which yes thats partly true but its a two tier system.You can refuse the first tier (employment) and say im not working, im not being a slave but eventually you will be caught up in the second tier that is capitalism.It will make sure that by refusing the first tier and minimum wage you lack the basic currency to gain access to food and water.Which is not a lie as without money, you are entitled to nothing in a county based on brutal all out capitalism.

You seem to be missing important piece of this puzzle. This system is there to encourage you to stop being deadbeat and stop depending on JSA or benefits indefinitely. By actually going to work not only you can avoid this alleged "slave labour" but also guarantee for your own kids NOT to become this dreamt up "parental accident away from becoming dependant on the state" you are so afraid of. It couldn't be simpler. If you just start working for the upkeep of you and your family, none of you ever get any close to the situation where some so-and-so in a tie behind a desk tells any of you to go and straighten some items on Poundlands shelves for a while.

The only way you could argue against it is if you thought you were somehow special and it was your god given right to boink around on taxpayers money indefinitely and treat the rest of us as your pocket money piggy bank.

Von you are utterly clueless.Without reading a single word of what i wrote you simply typed "get a job".No arguement about being forced into employment, nothing about how having natural resources locked away in the hands of the few, all you have to spout is basically shut up and work in poundland.At least you had the intelligence to grasp one very important point.

This system is there to encourage you to stop being deadbeat and stop depending on JSA or benefits indefinitely.

But failed the bit about no one wanting to be on JSA/Benefits.Simply allow people access to the ability to look after themselves without having to go to poundland.Its pretty simply really i just fail to see how you cannot grasp it? And you had the nerve to tell people to stop piggybanking on your taxes.Well maybe if you retards stopped buying up rivers and fields for the sake of making money people would never need to be forced to take things from you via taxation.


Why do the goverment tax you? Because they know that in most cases its immoral not too considering that people are hogging what others need to live on.Its a bit like me putting a patent on Oxygen and charging the entire world for it.Just because i have the wealth to monopolise something everyone needs means that once they come asking for oxygen i can simply tell them to sod off and stop piggy banking on my property right?

 

[leaskovski]

Thats exactly what happens when you are born without access to natural resources or certain skills employers want.

But everyone in the UK has the opportunity to go to school and learn such skills?

 

[Sudden]

just they wont pay you the legal min wage for it though.

Even giving into that point (which we've argued before and we disagree on), that doesn't apply if you get a job outside of the scheme.

Beware my post first edit later lazyness though but yes i noticed it I find it really interesting though that he and most people i talk too have little interest even if what i stated is true.

I find it like putting a mouse in a lab enviroment and studying him as to why his brain works so different than mine.Im genuinely curious as to how right wingers manage to dodge facts about capitalism and slavery.They love to tell you that you have a choice, you cannot be a slave as you can choose not too which yes thats partly true but its a two tier system.


You can refuse the first tier (employment) and say im not working, im not being a slave but eventually you will be caught up in the second tier that is capitalism.It will make sure that by refusing the first tier and minimum wage you lack the basic currency to gain access to food and water.Which is not a lie as without money, you are entitled to nothing in a county based on brutal all out capitalism.

So if I read this right, you want a system by which you don't have to work but are able to survive by 'living off the land'?

Not only is that ignoring the way civilization has progressed, let's assume you are given a piece of land.

What exactly do you want in it? Just the land? What happens if it is not condusive to growing crops? What do you plan to do then? Trade with someone? Oh, let's see what most people trade in these days. Currency? Yes! How would you get that now if you refuse to get a job which involves being paid in this magical currency?

Unless you want a system by which everyone in the world goes back to this? In which case, what is the point of progress? :s

 

[v0n]

just they wont pay you the legal min wage for it though.

Because they are not employing you. You are not their employee to receive any wage at all. If you don't like to be part of the program, you are absolutely free to go to the highest bidder for you labour. Nobody is keeping you or forcing you to participate in any part of this in exchange for further advancements of taxpayer's pocket money.

 

[Sudden]

Criticise the scheme, suggest alternatives and not only would I take you seriously, but I may even agree on some issues but count me out if you want to start likening doing a few weeks (or even months) at an Air Conditioned high street supermarket in return for a benefit hand out every month with people being kidnapped, sent over seas, chained up, whipped and expected to work 20 hours a day at gun point for their entire lives, justified by racial supremacy.

It's just as insult to those millions of people throughout history (and even today in some parts of the world) who were/are suffering actual slavery and makes a mockery of a potential good argument against workfare.

I would give up. I've argued this point before on this thread. It doesn't work.

 

[v0n]

Von you are utterly clueless.Without reading a single word of what i wrote you simply typed "get a job".No arguement about being forced into employment, nothing about how having natural resources locked away in the hands of the few, all you have to spout is basically shut up and work in poundland.

First of all, can I ask you to stop editing your posts 20 times. Just do multiple posts if you forgot something the first time around. It's really hard to discuss anything when you keep changing things.

Secondly. This whole "forced into employment" and "natural resources" ranting, I'm sorry to say, is just deranged. You live, you work. In every system. It's not capitalism, in every system, ever, if you don't work, you don't have money, you don't have independent living. If you haven't figured out that yet, then I suppose we, as a society have failed you. But if you think this makes you a slave, then please use the last available resources this version of capitalism have provided you with and seek some free medical help. The world around you is not going to change any time soon. And it's the best version of it we, as human race, managed to create in the last several thousand years. We are not going to change it just because you feel uncomfortable within its constraints. Stop being primadonna about it and start carrying your own weight.