Going to casino, how do I count cards?

Mat · 25 Sep 2013 at 11:52

Practice playing Countdown.

This will get your noodle round the fast mathematics you will need in order to reach one number in a variety of ways but considering you're only dealing with 2 numbers, perhaps the ability to split, multiply and otherwise screw with the numbers in front of you might help...

e.g. if you get a 6 followed by an 8, you know 6 x 2 = 12 without having to think. You then just add the remaining 2 (which would make the 8) rather than having to use your fingers... which it sounds like you might have to resort to I'm afraid.

:/

Suarez7 · 25 Sep 2013 at 12:02

Degree in maths, can't do the simplest forms of it.

Thanks for the laugh

Psiko · 25 Sep 2013 at 12:22

In response to the OP, practice. Once you have practiced enough, you do not actually add the two numbers together, but rather you see the two cards and know what the total is without thinking. I use a good iPhone app called 21 Sim (free version) which has a lot of flexibility in the rules and display - you can turn off the total display forcing you to add the cards up yourself. And as others have said, the dealer will usually tell you the total and then ask you what you want to do (e.g "card on 16?").

kindai said:
As someone who has done it, to some degree of success, I can tell you the straight ups:

1) You need to have a *massive* bankroll and able to sit out bad runs. Yes they happen. And Yes even counting cards you can lose hundreds/thousands on a bit of bad luck. For example, I was sitting down on a £2 a hand table with a £500 bankroll, minimum.

2) The key to counting is to play as many perfect hands in an hour. This means if you sit down on a blackjack table you need to be playing all 6 boxes at once. Playing 1 box will get you nowhere.

3) If someone else sits down who isn't a perfect player, forget it. Stop playing and wait for them to leave.

4) Find a system you are comfortable with using and practise it. There are a lot of free programs which throw cards at you quickly, you need to be able to keep a running count with a lot of distractions going on. The hi-lo system is the simplest and usually easiest to learn, it allows for a good edge allowing you to focus on other things.

5) Playing side games will lose you money. Period.

6) If a casino has CSM's, forget it, if they even get a hint you may be counting they'll bring one onto your table. The moment you stop playing when they do that, expect to be escorted off the premesis.

7) Don't expect to be a millionaire over night. Counting is a long, boring and a hell of a grind. On a £2 table playing 6 boxes at ~50 hands per box per hour I was earning a little above minimum wage.

8) And most importantly, the biggest aspect to counting is not getting caught, you wont get done-over in a back room like in the movies, but you will get banned from the casino (and if part of a chain, all the others). The pit bosses and the croupiers watch for counters. If your new at it, you will get spotted very quickly.

Kindai - I agree with everything you say except for number 3. Why does the action of any other player influence your expected outcome? The expectation of the true count after the next card is drawn is the same as the true count at the current moment in time and is not affected by whether a card is drawn or not. A novice player who takes a card when they shouldn't (according to the optimal strategy) has the same probability of improving my situation as they do making it worse. The only reason I don't like to play with novices is that they are slow - counting cards is about getting through as many hands as you can as quickly as you can.

I am more irritated by the "experienced" punters who get annoyed about the guy on the end box because he didn't bust himself by taking a ten that went to the dealer instead and gave blackjack - an outcome that could have equally been the other way round!

Catanonia · 25 Sep 2013 at 12:26

Ignore card counting, all modern casino's use 6 packs mechanically shuffled plus they will easily spot a new card counter.

Follow these rules to the letter relegiously and statisitically you will come out on top.

How much you win depends on how much you bet. I normally bet £100 - £200 a hand.

REMEMBER - All you have to do is beat or bust the dealer and they must get to 17 or more.

a. If the dealer has 6 or under always stick when you get to 12 or over
b. If the dealer has 7 or over, always get to 17 or over no matter what
c. Never double unless you have an ace and the dealer has a 2 or a 3
d. Never split cards.
e. Never take insurance.
f. Never play side games unless you are betting £100 bets and side games are £1 - £2
g. Keep your bets the same amount all the time or maybe increase them and stick to the new limit. Never try to guess the outcome and change bet amounts on the fly

Above all, stick to these rules. Maths and statistics rule.

Simple really and been using it for years. I visit a local casino once a week with normally a couple of grand.

MooMoo444 · 25 Sep 2013 at 12:26

Maths degree and can't count single digits in blackjack or keep track of what cards in deck?

o_O

It's like being able to drive an 18 wheeler truck but then not being able to drive a mini.

dowie · 25 Sep 2013 at 12:40

Catanonia said:
Ignore card counting, all modern casino's use 6 packs mechanically shuffled plus they will easily spot a new card counter.

that's a reasonable point

Follow these rules to the letter relegiously and statisitically you will come out on top.

How much you win depends on how much you bet. I normally bet £100 - £200 a hand.

REMEMBER - All you have to do is beat or bust the dealer and they must get to 17 or more.

a. If the dealer has 6 or under always stick when you get to 12 or over
b. If the dealer has 7 or over, always get to 17 or over no matter what
c. Never double unless you have an ace and the dealer has a 2 or a 3
d. Never split cards.
e. Never take insurance.
f. Never play side games unless you are betting £100 bets and side games are £1 - £2
g. Keep your bets the same amount all the time or maybe increase them and stick to the new limit. Never try to guess the outcome and change bet amounts on the fly

Above all, stick to these rules. Maths and statistics rule.

the above advice isn't bad but the statement "Follow these rules to the letter religiously and statistically you will come out on top." is dumb... you've still got a negative expectation doing the above - statistically you won't come out on top

wildman · 25 Sep 2013 at 12:57

Catanonia said:
Ignore card counting, all modern casino's use 6 packs mechanically shuffled plus they will easily spot a new card counter.

Follow these rules to the letter relegiously and statisitically you will come out on top.

How much you win depends on how much you bet. I normally bet £100 - £200 a hand.

REMEMBER - All you have to do is beat or bust the dealer and they must get to 17 or more.

a. If the dealer has 6 or under always stick when you get to 12 or over
b. If the dealer has 7 or over, always get to 17 or over no matter what
c. Never double unless you have an ace and the dealer has a 2 or a 3
d. Never split cards.
e. Never take insurance.
f. Never play side games unless you are betting £100 bets and side games are £1 - £2
g. Keep your bets the same amount all the time or maybe increase them and stick to the new limit. Never try to guess the outcome and change bet amounts on the fly

Above all, stick to these rules. Maths and statistics rule.

Simple really and been using it for years. I visit a local casino once a week with normally a couple of grand.

appart from Aces, always split Aces.

_dogma_ · 25 Sep 2013 at 13:14

Mat said:
Practice playing Countdown.

This will get your noodle round the fast mathematics you will need in order to reach one number in a variety of ways but considering you're only dealing with 2 numbers, perhaps the ability to split, multiply and otherwise screw with the numbers in front of you might help...

e.g. if you get a 6 followed by an 8, you know 6 x 2 = 12 without having to think. You then just add the remaining 2 (which would make the 8) rather than having to use your fingers... which it sounds like you might have to resort to I'm afraid.

:/

This is what I do. So 5+8=5+5=10+3=13.

I'm terrible at mental maths, especially if someone is waiting for an answer but adding is easy if you break it up. Double the lower number then add whatever is left.

I do it for bigger numbers too. Eg. 60+78=60+60=120+18=138

You just have to find a way that's easier to count for you and do it from there...

Mat · 25 Sep 2013 at 13:23

_dogma_ said:
This is what I do. So 5+8=5+5=10+3=13.

I'm terrible at mental maths, especially if someone is waiting for an answer but adding is easy if you break it up. Double the lower number then add whatever is left.

I do it for bigger numbers too. Eg. 60+78=60+60=120+18=138

You just have to find a way that's easier to count for you and do it from there...

The only problem is that you need to be good at multiplication and subtraction, rather than addition so you could potentially be doubling your problems

Psiko · 25 Sep 2013 at 13:24

Catanonia said:
Ignore card counting, all modern casino's use 6 packs mechanically shuffled plus they will easily spot a new card counter.

Follow these rules to the letter relegiously and statisitically you will come out on top.

How much you win depends on how much you bet. I normally bet £100 - £200 a hand.

REMEMBER - All you have to do is beat or bust the dealer and they must get to 17 or more.

a. If the dealer has 6 or under always stick when you get to 12 or over
b. If the dealer has 7 or over, always get to 17 or over no matter what
c. Never double unless you have an ace and the dealer has a 2 or a 3
d. Never split cards.
e. Never take insurance.
f. Never play side games unless you are betting £100 bets and side games are £1 - £2
g. Keep your bets the same amount all the time or maybe increase them and stick to the new limit. Never try to guess the outcome and change bet amounts on the fly

Above all, stick to these rules. Maths and statistics rule.

Simple really and been using it for years. I visit a local casino once a week with normally a couple of grand.

Can I ask how you have performed over the years? If you have won money overall, you have either been very lucky or have been kidding yourself by not counting the small losses. Perfect basic strategy can get the house edge down to 0.5% or so, but this strategy is likely to be closer to 5% I would've thought.

Your advice is a vague (easy to remember) approximation of basic strategy but is certainly not the optimal strategy. For example, there are many cases where you should split or double which you have not included and I think you probably mean to double when you have an ace and the dealer has 5 or 6 (which are far worse cards than 2 or 3).

estebanrey · 25 Sep 2013 at 13:25

_dogma_ said:
I'm terrible at mental maths, especially if someone is waiting for an answer but adding is easy if you break it up. Double the lower number then add whatever is left.

And English, the word you were looking for was "arithmetic"

Davey_Pitch · 25 Sep 2013 at 13:29

Catanonia said:
Follow these rules to the letter relegiously and statisitically you will come out on top.

No you won't. Blackjack, like every casino game, is statistically in the house's favour. Nothing you do will change that. If you play long enough, you will eventually lose. That's cold hard fact. You can minimise the edge by playing perfect strategy, and if you're lucky that can mean you come out ahead. There is no statistical way to consistently win at blackjack. It simply doesn't exist.

_dogma_ · 25 Sep 2013 at 13:32

Mat said:
The only problem is that you need to be good at multiplication and subtraction, rather than addition so you could potentially be doubling your problems

While this is true I do it that way because multiplying by 2 is easier for me. But single digit numbers should be no problem I'd think...hope?

estebanrey said:
And English, the word you were looking for was "arithmetic"

We only did mathematics classes at school...I'm not old enough to remember classes called arithmetic

Nerusy · 25 Sep 2013 at 13:39

Davey_Pitch said:
No you won't. Blackjack, like every casino game, is statistically in the house's favour. Nothing you do will change that. If you play long enough, you will eventually lose. That's cold hard fact. You can minimise the edge by playing perfect strategy, and if you're lucky that can mean you come out ahead. There is no statistical way to consistently win at blackjack. It simply doesn't exist.

Optimal strategy gets house advantage down to ~0.5%. Then counting cards does give the player an edge. As in statistically over long term you will be on top.

gjrc · 25 Sep 2013 at 13:44

Catanonia said:
Ignore card counting, all modern casino's use 6 packs mechanically shuffled plus they will easily spot a new card counter.

Follow these rules to the letter relegiously and statisitically you will come out on top.

How much you win depends on how much you bet. I normally bet £100 - £200 a hand.

REMEMBER - All you have to do is beat or bust the dealer and they must get to 17 or more.

a. If the dealer has 6 or under always stick when you get to 12 or over
b. If the dealer has 7 or over, always get to 17 or over no matter what
c. Never double unless you have an ace and the dealer has a 2 or a 3
d. Never split cards.
e. Never take insurance.
f. Never play side games unless you are betting £100 bets and side games are £1 - £2
g. Keep your bets the same amount all the time or maybe increase them and stick to the new limit. Never try to guess the outcome and change bet amounts on the fly

Above all, stick to these rules. Maths and statistics rule.

Simple really and been using it for years. I visit a local casino once a week with normally a couple of grand.

you will still lose over time.

also do other players influence the outcome of perfect strategy?

No1newts · 25 Sep 2013 at 13:48

Go back to primary education for starters OP.

Davey_Pitch · 25 Sep 2013 at 13:57

Nerusy said:
Optimal strategy gets house advantage down to ~0.5%. Then counting cards does give the player an edge. As in statistically over long term you will be on top.

Counting cards is becoming increasingly difficult with electronic shufflers and the like. It can't really be relied on like it did 10+ years ago.

Nerusy · 25 Sep 2013 at 14:01

Davey_Pitch said:
Counting cards is becoming increasingly difficult with electronic shufflers and the like. It can't really be relied on like it did 10+ years ago.

If you are playing on an electronic shuffle it's pointless to card count, they are continuously shuffled. It won't give any merit.

I am, quite obviously, talking about manual shuffle tables, the only table where counting cards should be used.

Catanonia · 25 Sep 2013 at 14:10

Psiko said:
Can I ask how you have performed over the years? If you have won money overall, you have either been very lucky or have been kidding yourself by not counting the small losses. Perfect basic strategy can get the house edge down to 0.5% or so, but this strategy is likely to be closer to 5% I would've thought.

Your advice is a vague (easy to remember) approximation of basic strategy but is certainly not the optimal strategy. For example, there are many cases where you should split or double which you have not included and I think you probably mean to double when you have an ace and the dealer has 5 or 6 (which are far worse cards than 2 or 3).

I have simplified the rules for the forum and time, but yes I always follow these rules with a few twists.

You increase your odds a little, but at the end of the day it is all about stats and sticking to a plan, which I admit is not easy and some of my big losses are because I thought I knew better and didn't follow the rules.

Hard to say how well I have done as all depends on your bets, but last year I was up considerably, this year down a bit.

Takes balls though to play £100 - £200 hands.

Catanonia · 25 Sep 2013 at 14:12

gjrc said:
you will still lose over time.

Not according to the maths unless your are unlucky. Of course some sessions you will loose, some you will win, it is the delta's that matter. Try it yourself on a free blackjack table with dummy money. But you will need to average it out over several sessions.

gjrc said:
also do other players influence the outcome of perfect strategy?

I ask for a private table to play £20- £500 hands and don't touch the newbie £2 tables. I leave if another player who doesn't know what they are doing joins, which is rare, as I like a brisk game. I usually start of at £20 stakes and depending on the night might endup around the £100 - £200 mark.

This is not a perfect strategy, it is a basic set of rules to play to put the odds statisitcally in your favour and is independent of other hands. (Of course other hands affect cards, but it doesn't affect the thinking process of these rules)

Also the rules are extremely simple to follow without complex mind numbing calcs and not outrlawed by the casino's. Infact at my regular casino I may as well not be sitting at the table as the dealers know how I play perfectly everytime.

That said, no stategy is perfect otherwise blackjack and casino's wouldn't exist.

This is my method of playing BJ over 2 years and works for me. Of course you could always try card counting

Good luck at the table.