working for your dole......

spankingtexan said:
So you think it is acceptable to treat the unemployed as criminals? you do understand that real criminals are sentenced to carry out unpaid work as a punishment don't you?

http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=3018

What legal requirements? take a look at some of the scenarios people are being sanctioned for, are you seriously suggesting that jobcentres are playing fair?

http://falseeconomy.org.uk/blog/a-l...ous-benefit-sanctions-people-have-experienced
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Just read the sanctions link, are the JC really that unorganised?
Now I appreciate that things like this may be less common but this one in particular...

You retire on the grounds of ill health and claim ESA. You go to your assessment and during the assessment you have a heart attack, so the nurse says they have to stop the assessment. You get sanctioned for not withdrawing from your assessment (Source: Debbie Abrahams MP)
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:confused: really!?!?
 
~Divine~Wind~ said:
Just read the sanctions link, are the JC really that unorganised?
Now I appreciate that things like this may be less common but this one in particular...



:confused: really!?!?
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I think maybe you should have read the source link. Here is what she said..

Quote

Again, I support the principle of a sanctions regime. If somebody consistently fails to turn up for work experience or a Work programme scheme, sanctions should be applied. However, I believe that sanctions are being applied indiscriminately. For example, one of my constituents was a beneficiary of employment and support allowance after they had retired on grounds of ill health as a result of a heart problem. He was required to attend a work capability assessment with Atos. During


19 Mar 2013 : Column 840

the assessment, he was told that he was having a heart attack and the nurse said that she had to stop the assessment. He got a letter a couple of weeks later saying that he had withdrawn from the assessment and, as such, was being sanctioned. That beggars belief. I have other examples, as I am sure do colleagues.
 
~Divine~Wind~ said:
Just read the sanctions link, are the JC really that unorganised?
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Yes, they really are that disorganised, but they just rely on reports back from ATOS - who are really at the root of most assessment issues.

But JC+ apathy is also to be expected as the Tories cut swathes of civil servants, attack their pensions, attack their terms and conditions and reduce morale to an all time low.

In that environment, is it really any wonder that JC+ staff don't give a ****?
 
amigafan2003 said:
Yes, they really are that disorganised, but they just rely on reports back from ATOS - who are really at the root of most assessment issues.

But JC+ apathy is also to be expected as the Tories cut swathes of civil servants, attack their pensions, attack their terms and conditions and reduce morale to an all time low.

In that environment, is it really any wonder that JC+ staff don't give a ****?
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The hilarious thing is that whilst he's attacking benefits with one hand, he' planning to cut corporation tax for big business with the other.

And their current conference slogan is "profit is good - profit is not a dirty word". Pretty much sums them up.

Against social safety nets and state run services, pro large corporations, profit and greed.
 
AndyT said:
So are we all agreed then? Let's just leave it as it is?

But seriously, there are many people here who like to give the impression that they care so much more than the rest of us about the plight of those at the bottom of the pile (which, let's not forget in the UK is still an incredibly privileged position to be in). However I would wager that these very same people will never be found actively doing anything to help those people that they so eagerly clamour to defend.

The hypocrisy is plain and clear, most of the false concern for the poor on here is pretty much just ego-massaging. A way for people to convince them selves that "I care. I'm a good person" and give themselves a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside. Probably 99% of faux-socialists will just jump online, where they know they can run off when they've reached their very narrow limit of understanding on a subject, wax lyrical about how unfair society is amongst their other privileged friends, blow hot air, semi-socialist bull**** down the pub, or over their £3 high-street coffee whilst wearing nice, warm, recently purchased clothes, stroking their (probably) ironic beard, comfortable in the knowledge that they can go home after and watch Breaking Bad on Netflix and forget about it all until some other "priviliged toff" (oh the irony) has the utter gall to suggest people lift a finger and contribute to society for a living.

I'm happy to work hard, pay my taxes (without complaining) and try in the future to bring up my children (hopefully) to be functioning members of society. To me, that's more than enough help towards the greater good. That is real, tangible assistance to society. I could do more, God knows I could do more, I'm more than happy to admit that; but at least people with my views don't pretend to care more about the poor than others, or care more than they really do. That to me, is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

I'm going to bet that there's a few people who've read the above, felt the rage bubble inside and are now itching to jump to the keyboard and tear this post apart. Well before you do, be honest with yourself, what is the cause of that rage? Take a second and think. There's a good chance that I've just described you, isn't there? Is that anger you're experiencing the uncomfortable feeling of self realisation; that very awful, human feeling everybody gets when they've been criticised and they know in their heart of hearts that the other person has a point? Or is it genuine outrage - You DO help the poor, you DO volunteer to help the unemployed with their CVs, you DO help someone you know who is struggling with Maths and English?

Nope, thought not.

Suck it up, my friend. Pretending to care on the internet does not make you a good person.
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Some sweeping generalisations there, particularly because it is highly likely that you dont know anything about anyone on this forum beyond the opinions you have formed about them based on their posts.

When the next child goes missing, does the nation all have to go and help with the search personally for their care and empathy for the family and the child to be valid? It must be a very cold and lonely world that you live in.

I dont have a bubble of rage, by the way, but I am just curious as to why you seem to?

As for me, well I just dont like to see people brainwashed by media and political spin into bashing people on benefits because of a false belief that they are the cause of all of our problems. It is not just about them lifting a finger to help the nation, it is about giving them the means to do so, and the issues surrounding the subject are far more broad than simply saying to JSA claimants "get a job". True that is an element, but the subject of the long term unemployed is far more complex than simply pointing the finger and calling them lazy.

They are naught more than scapegoats to score political support for parties to try and win elections. I will speak up for them in the same way I speak up for anyone who I feel is being wrongly accused or disingenuously represented, be that on a forum or in real life. Do I think I care about them more than someone else does? Maybe, maybe not - it depends on the person. Do I care if other people dont care? No, not really as long as their not caring is based on insight and the actual facts rather than Daily Fail reports. To each their own, but I think beating up on a group armed with the kind of 'facts' we read in the Daily Fail needs to be challenged. Perhaps I just care more about facts than others do?

Frankly if that makes me an armchair semi-socialst beard stroking coffee drinking hypocrite, then so be it. But I will continue to speak up for people and do my best to try and open peoples eyes to the misreporting and half-truths in the media, and to try and change their minds through informed discussion.

Cheers

Buff
 
BuffetSlayer said:
As for me, well I just dont like to see people brainwashed by media and political spin into bashing people on benefits because of a false belief that they are the cause of all of our problems. It is not just about them lifting a finger to help the nation, it is about giving them the means to do so, and the issues surrounding the subject are far more broad than simply saying to JSA claimants "get a job". True that is an element, but the subject of the long term unemployed is far more complex than simply pointing the finger and calling them lazy.

They are naught more than scapegoats to score political support for parties to try and win elections. I will speak up for them in the same way I speak up for anyone who I feel is being wrongly accused or disingenuously represented, be that on a forum or in real life. Do I think I care about them more than someone else does? Maybe, maybe not - it depends on the person. Do I care if other people dont care? No, not really as long as their not caring is based on insight and the actual facts rather than Daily Fail reports. To each their own, but I think beating up on a group armed with the kind of 'facts' we read in the Daily Fail needs to be challenged. Perhaps I just care more about facts than others do?

Frankly if that makes me an armchair semi-socialst beard stroking coffee drinking hypocrite, then so be it. But I will continue to speak up for people and do my best to try and open peoples eyes to the misreporting and half-truths in the media, and to try and change their minds through informed discussion.
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Well said.

There are plenty of people, some of whom post here, who will look at the unemployed, the low-paid, those who genuinely struggle just to survive - and feel no sympathy *at all*...

There are those who (perhaps willfully ignorant of reality) have convinced themselves that "anyone can be rich - you just have to work hard."
 
Don't have time to go through all the new posts since I last read but these are two points I want to pick up on -

Increase minimum wage!

Minimum wages reduce competitiveness, which is something we can ill afford. Low value labour can be sent overseas to save costs if we increase it too much.

Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, which is one of the factors in it's success.

I can't afford to rent on minimum wage

So move in with someone. Stop living beyond your means and learn to cut your cloth to fit your means. There will be plenty of spare rooms available now that we have the spare room 'tax'.
 
if you increase the national minimum wage then employers have to charge more for their products to pay their staff, so consumers have to pay more........ any increase in extra earning will quickly be wiped out.
if it was this easy don't you think it would have been done already?
anyone who thinks a significant raise of the NMW will help in anyway needs to go and see a head doctor.
like I said before, if its increased too much all the big companies like Honda will disappear from the UK because labour is cheaper elsewhere, then how many more unemployed will there be?
stop using NMW as an argument to protect the genuinely lazy scroungers. Its ridiculous.


These are the kind of people who the government wants to target with this scheme, how can anyone defend them?
 
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Thompson_NCL said:
I can't afford to rent on minimum wage

So move in with someone. Stop living beyond your means and learn to cut your cloth to fit your means. There will be plenty of spare rooms available now that we have the spare room 'tax'.
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House prices are being *deliberately* kept artificially high. I keep reading this, in columns by financial experts. Were it not for the banks and our own government using their powers to keep house prices where they are, they would years ago have crashed back down again.

But you have to ask yourself... whose interests does it serve to keep house prices high? Banks, landlords, property speculators, etc. The people who vote Tory.

In your ideal world - where people live according to their income, and minimum wage is no more - we'd be packed in like Mexicans, with 15 people sharing a house (which they don't own, but paying instead extortionate rent to the land owner)...

Yeah, this is the world we're heading to anyway. Inequality is growing, and will continue to grown, until we have another peasant revolution, and finally do away with this obscene greed-driven capitalist hell hole we seem intent on creating.
 
FoxEye said:
House prices are being *deliberately* kept artificially high. I keep reading this, in columns by financial experts. Were it not for the banks and our own government using their powers to keep house prices where they are, they would years ago have crashed back down again.

But you have to ask yourself... whose interests does it serve to keep house prices high? Banks, landlords, property speculators, etc. The people who vote Tory.

In your ideal world - where people live according to their income, and minimum wage is no more - we'd be packed in like Mexicans, with 15 people sharing a house (which they don't own, but paying instead extortionate rent to the land owner)...

Yeah, this is the world we're heading to anyway. Inequality is growing, and will continue to grown, until we have another peasant revolution, and finally do away with this obscene greed-driven capitalist hell hole we seem intent on creating.
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I don't see how this is has anything to do with getting the lazy to work for their benefits
 
Have to say i Think its a good idea. There are far to many people, including some I have seen where I live enjoy a life on the dole doing nothing at all including doing nothing to look for work. I think its a great idea.

I also dont agree it will take jobs away from those who need it, BUT can see your point though. As was said they simply wont get their benefits. It will not only provide that person with their money to "survive" but also work experience.
 
Thompson_NCL said:
Increase minimum wage!

Minimum wages reduce competitiveness, which is something we can ill afford. Low value labour can be sent overseas to save costs if we increase it too much.
Click to expand...

A race to the bottom against the likes of India and China isn't a race that we're likely to win.
 
nick.lidgett said:
if you increase the national minimum wage then employers have to charge more for their products to pay their staff, so consumers have to pay more........ any increase in extra earning will quickly be wiped out.
if it was this easy don't you think it would have been done already?
anyone who thinks a significant raise of the NMW will help in anyway needs to go and see a head doctor.
like I said before, if its increased too much all the big companies like Honda will disappear from the UK because labour is cheaper elsewhere, then how many more unemployed will there be?
stop using NMW as an argument to protect the genuinely lazy scroungers. Its ridiculous.


These are the kind of people who the government wants to target with this scheme, how can anyone defend them?
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Calm down dude, people will have different opinions to you, you have stated you wanted others thoughts on the topic, just because some disagree with you isn't a reason to go off on your tantrums. Take it easy yeah.
 
hurfdurf said:
Lol at this nonsense. 50k people just marched in Manchester, but yea, it's the arm chair socilialists that post at the length you just did in a "bubble of rage" (LOL), not the care mad "stuff you got mine!" "Pull the ladder up jack!" people posting about how really people who care don't care because you don't know what they do outside of posting, and the 50k people can't possibly correlate.
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I'm not sure what your point is here. What are you saying? So what exactly do you do to help? Were you there in Manchester, on a union organised anti-tory march that had more to do with party politics than anything else? A march organised by the unions, who symbolise the everything for nothing culture.

Also, I can't take credit for the "rage bubble", I think you've just invented that yourself through slightly dodgy reading comprehension.
 
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FoxEye said:
I don't see any proposals which would be able to just target the lazy, however... Do you mean to imply that everyone on JSA/benefits is lazy?
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Clearly you have not been reading this thread, how many times do myself and others have to explain the to your question.
But for your benefit the short answer is NO.

spankingtexan said:
Calm down dude, people will have different opinions to you, you have stated you wanted others thoughts on the topic, just because some disagree with you isn't a reason to go off on your tantrums. Take it easy yeah.
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It amazes me how you got to the conclusion i was anything but calm.
If this is your input to the thread i give you a 2 out of 10 for effort.
 
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