LIfe After Death

[pitchfork]

Life after death is an oxymoron.

I believe once you're dead you're dead, I mean even if for example reincarnation was a thing, you won't know you've been reincarnated so it doesn't even matter.

 

[Skidder]

The rational view of this is so much more thrilling and compelling than any theory plucked from wishful thinking. I am space dust hear me roar.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

Lol, love it how so many posters state their opinion almost as if its FACT! and there is no other alternative.
There's an arguement for life after death, if you believe even 000.1% of all those people who profess have seen ghosts, had near death experiences etc.

Personally, i DO believe there is something for the soul after the body ceases to live. I refuse not to believe it, and it's not through some subconscious survival tool to help allay fear of death. To me its just part of the journey.
It's not even from a religious pov. I simply can't bring myself to accept that when our heart and brain stops, that's it! The soul/spirit/consciousness is far more complex and powerful than that imho.

Refute my claims and i'll haunt the shizzla outta ya!

(or not, depending on what you believe )

 

[Yaayuh!]

worm food

 

[J.T]

My crazy take on it is that when you die your soul/essence/life force (whatever you want to call it) goes back in time and you are born again as yourself and live your life all over again without knowledge of the previous times you have lived it... apart from the odd occasion when you get deja vu.

 

[Banzai_Joe]

My crazy take on it is that when you die your soul/essence/life force (whatever you want to call it) goes back in time and you are born again as yourself and live your life all over again without knowledge of the previous times you have lived it... apart from the odd occasion when you get deja vu.

An interesting concept.
It was once suggested to me that is what happens until your soul has evolved enough to 'move on' to the next plain of existence.
Make of that what you will......

 

[elmarko]

The rationale view of this is so much more thrilling and compelling than any theory plucked from wishful thinking. I am space dust hear me roar.

Indeed.

Death is an integral part of life, it's required for advancement, evolution - even the stars must die.

As correctly mentioned above, at some point - our sun will die, leaving the earth barren & cold.

How exactly does reincarnation work if the earth along with every single life-form on it is dead? - seems to be clutching at straws to avoid the harsh (but also magnificent) reality to me.

While as a few mentioned here, obviously nobody knows - but that doesn't mean all theories are equally, or equally rational (many are logically flawed).

 

[matsquatch]

Dying is the price of living.

As correctly mentioned above, at some point - our sun will die, leaving the earth barren & cold.

From what I understand, as the sun dies, it expands and envelopes the earth - it'll get pretty toasty in the last few years!!

 

[elmarko]

Dying is the price of living.

From what I understand, as the sun dies, it expands and envelopes the earth - it'll get pretty toasty in the last few years!!

From what I've read, they believe it may reach earth, but they don't know for certain (but it was an old book I was reading - so they may know by now).

Either way, it will get destroyed by the sun or burnt to a crisp & left barren.

As you say, death is indeed the price of living - it's an integral part of evolutionary existence (be that stellar evolution, or biological evolution).

Nothing is explained by tacking on supernatural elements to the death event - no further predictive value is garnered & each assertion about what a person 'believes' will happen usually brings up more questions than it actually answers (in my view, that's not a very good theory).

 

[wickfut]

Lol, love it how so many posters state their opinion almost as if its FACT! and there is no other alternative.
There's an arguement for life after death, if you believe even 000.1% of all those people who profess have seen ghosts, had near death experiences etc.

Personally, i DO believe there is something for the soul after the body ceases to live. I refuse not to believe it, and it's not through some subconscious survival tool to help allay fear of death. To me its just part of the journey.
It's not even from a religious pov. I simply can't bring myself to accept that when our heart and brain stops, that's it! The soul/spirit/consciousness is far more complex and powerful than that imho.

Refute my claims and i'll haunt the shizzla outta ya!

(or not, depending on what you believe )

There is no reasonable argument for life after death. Every near-death experience can be explained by psychologists or doctors as a natural occurrence once your body is under stress or your brain is lacking in oxygen.

We know we all die - fact.
There's an alternative realm - unknown
There's a part of us, a soul, that can operate without a body - unknown
When we die our soul can go to this realm - unknown
Other people can see this realm/us - unknown

So looking at it logically you'll see that in order for ghosts/afterlife to exist we have to assume that at least 3 of the above unknowns actually exist.

It really is a huge leap of faith and not based on reality isn't it?

 

[Banzai_Joe]

But...you said logically, which implies only what we can prove with what we know.
It's the same old "science v [belief]" type of argument that has raged on forever.

To Quote the movie Thor: "Science fiction is only science fact we haven't discovered yet"
Reminds me of the "aliens could never visit earth, cos they wouldn't have the technology to do so..." LMAO....how the hell do our scientists know that!

Alas, as of now, i guess it still is personal belief, because you have rightly said most of it is unknown.

Every near-death experience can be explained by psychologists or doctors as a natural occurrence once your body is under stress or your brain is lacking in oxygen.

Baloney.
They give their 'theory' from within their realm of knowledge, it aint proven fact, cos they truly don't know do they?

 

[zenf]

Nothing is explained by tacking on supernatural elements to the death event - no further predictive value is garnered & each assertion about what a person 'believes' will happen usually brings up more questions than it actually answers (in my view, that's not a very good theory).

It makes it much less scary though.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

How exactly does reincarnation work if the earth along with every single life-form on it is dead? - seems to be clutching at straws to avoid the harsh (but also magnificent) reality to me.

I've never understood why people think the 'scientific' view is any more harsh than say the religious or spiritual view.

If Heaven and Hell, Karma or whatever doesn't exist, then that is far more liberating than if they do. If I am being judged on my deeds and then sent to eternal damnation or forced to relive the same existence again, I would have thought that is far harsher than simple being... well dead.

People with terminal diseases often say that the knowledge they are going to die has taken a huge weight off their shoulders. I'd have thought the same would be true if we knew there was nothing after... that what we did in this life would not cause us eternal suffering.

 

[elmarko]

I've never understood why people think the 'scientific' view is any more harsh than say the religious or spiritual view.

If Heaven and Hell, Karma or whatever doesn't exist, then that is far more liberating than if they do. If I am being judged on my deeds and then sent to eternal damnation or forced to relive the same existence again, I would have thought that is far harsher than simple being... well dead.

People with terminal diseases often say that the knowledge they are going to die has taken a huge weight off their shoulders. I'd have thought the same would be true if we knew there was nothing after... that what we did in this life would not cause us eternal suffering.

True, but think of it this way.

Nothing you can do (ie, being a good person or worshipping the right god) will allow you to escape death.

You will never see your lost loved ones, parents - grandparents or even children who have died again - religion & spirituality at least gives the possibility to dodge this uncomfortable view.

I can see why people do it, self preservation is a strong drive - I can also see why people take it personally when it's challenged (as you are basically implying they will never see grandma & grandpa again).

People when they believe in an afterlife don't tend assume they are going to hell, they tend to have a strong person bias which puts them firmly in the 'heaven' or nice fluffy afterlife (or at least not negative via reincarnation) as a method of escaping death.

 

[Castiel]

Many assumptions are being made here for both positive and negative propositions...it is as irrational to assume that a positive proposition has not been formed using reason as it is to assume the opposite. Life after Death need not mean returning to another Earthbound corporeal existence, or even a corporeal existence at all...it could simply be an altered state of existence, our corporeal self may well be a small portion of our greater existence within (or indeed without) the Universe, we may be a small insignificant part of a greater whole...our corporeal bodies may be a vessel for experience and death the transition and amalgamation of that experience in some Universal Intellect we simply cannot fathom...who knows..I certainly don't, we may well be only here, aware for what is a heartbeat and then oblivion..or our corporeal existence may simply be a heartbeat of our own existence, much of which is extant outside of this plane of experience. I mean, the entire life cycle of the Earth may well be a precursor to another transitional state of existence...the supernova of our Sun may well be another factor in that...we simply do not know.

We know the body dies...that is all we know. Anything else is assumption and either proposition can be reasoned and 'supernatural' simply means 'something we cannot explain or have no knowledge of within our material world'. Once explained, it is no longer 'supernatural'...we simply haven't the answers or experience to gain those answers...yet.

(This doesn't presuppose the rationality or not of any specific or particular idea, religious position, secular ideology or merely individuals thoughts...it is simply a generalisation of the question and how it is approached)

 

[wickfut]

But...you said logically, which implies only what we can prove with what we know.
It's the same old "science v [belief]" type of argument that has raged on forever.

To Quote the movie Thor: "Science fiction is only science fact we haven't discovered yet"
Reminds me of the "aliens could never visit earth, cos they wouldn't have the technology to do so..." LMAO....how the hell do our scientists know that!

Alas, as of now, i guess it still is personal belief, because you have rightly said most of it is unknown.

Baloney.
They give their 'theory' from within their realm of knowledge, it aint proven fact, cos they truly don't know do they?

We have a thing called probability which is based on our current understanding on how things work.
For eg.
My first unknown point regarding an alternative reality - is it probable based on what we know? maybe.
My forth point would need the other three "unknowns" to exist in order to true. Based on our current understanding, this is improbable.

The fact that you choose to ignore our current understanding of reality and believe in things without any evidence at all just shows you're living in a fantasy world. Unless you're privy to something which the rest of the world isn't?

 

[Schlong&Stable]

People when they believe in an afterlife don't tend assume they are going to hell, they tend to have a strong person bias which puts them firmly in the 'heaven' or nice fluffy afterlife (or at least not negative via reincarnation) as a method of escaping death.

I don't think people assume they are going to heaven or has good karma or whatever, I think most people deep down know they are flawed and question whether they have done the right thing. If you believe sincerely believe in heaven and hell, I cannot imagine many people feel confident they lived a good life. I also think you're taking a very narrow view of the issue, ignoring the fact that throughout history many cultures viewed the afterlife as being far from pleasant full-stop.

I am not saying that you don't have a point, but I do think you're oversimplifying it by suggesting people embrace spiritually to avoid the stark "reality" of things. The spirituality of man runs far deeper than that and does not originate from ignorance or fear.

 

[elmarko]

Many assumptions are being made here for both positive and negative propositions...it is as irrational to assume that a positive proposition has not been formed using reason as it is to assume the opposite. Life after Death need not mean returning to another Earthbound corporeal existence, or even a corporeal existence at all...it could simply be an altered state of existence, our corporeal self may well be a small portion of our greater existence within (or indeed without) the Universe, we may be a small insignificant part of a greater whole...our corporeal bodies may be a vessel for experience and death the transition and amalgamation of that experience in some Universal Intellect we simply cannot fathom...who knows..I certainly don't, we may well be only here, aware for what is a heartbeat and then oblivion..or our corporeal existence may simply be a heartbeat of our own existence, much of which is extant outside of this plane of experience. I mean, the entire life cycle of the Earth may well be a precursor to another transitional state of existence...the supernova of our Sun may well be another factor in that...we simply do not know.

The problem is, there is no reason to believe any of the above.

Belief in ultimate death seems in line with our understanding that the conciousness is formed as part of the brain - our minds are physical.

As we map the brain through neuroscience, our understanding as how brain damage (localised) impacts of cognitive function - seems to further lend evidence to the physical nature of the concious experience.

Really what's being proposed is substance dualism - again, another concept to which no evidence exists & has no predictive value whatsoever.

We know the body dies...that is all we know.

Precisely, which is as far as our views should go.

Anything else is assumption and either proposition can be reasoned and 'supernatural' simply means 'something we cannot explain or have no knowledge of within our material world'. Once explained, it is no longer 'supernatural'...we simply haven't the answers or experience to gain those answers...yet.

(This doesn't presuppose the rationality or not of any specific or particular idea, religious position, secular ideology or merely individuals thoughts...it is simply a generalisation of the question and how it is approached)

Currently unexplained by science isn't interchangeable with supernatural - supernatural concepts are by definition not testable by science & do not exist within the realms of science (usually not in the physical world).

Currently unexplained is just that, unknown - we don't know what happens after death - true, but on the side we have no reason to believe anything happens after death either.

 

[Zethor]

But...you said logically, which implies only what we can prove with what we know.
It's the same old "science v [belief]" type of argument that has raged on forever.

To Quote the movie Thor: "Science fiction is only science fact we haven't discovered yet"
Reminds me of the "aliens could never visit earth, cos they wouldn't have the technology to do so..." LMAO....how the hell do our scientists know that!

Alas, as of now, i guess it still is personal belief, because you have rightly said most of it is unknown.

Baloney.
They give their 'theory' from within their realm of knowledge, it aint proven fact, cos they truly don't know do they?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but it's only the informed opinions that actually matter when seeking answers. Making assumptions based on absolutely nothing is a dead end, it doesn't explain anything.

On the other hand, informed opinions are very useful because they often lead to a better understanding of our surroundings. If Newton, the devout Christian, had declared "God did it." when trying to explain mavity, would we be closer to understanding it? No, which is why he created his hypothesis based on existing pieces of information.

Near death experiences can be explained through the scientific method and although, like mavity, they are not fully understood, it's irrational to declare "God/magical energy did it.".

There is no life after death and this is the correct stance on the subject until evidence is found suggesting otherwise.

 

[elmarko]

I don't think people assume they are going to heaven or has good karma or whatever, I think most people deep down know they are flawed and question whether they have done the right thing. If you believe sincerely believe in heaven and hell, I cannot imagine many people feel confident they lived a good life. I also think you're taking a very narrow view of the issue, ignoring the fact that throughout history many cultures viewed the afterlife as being far from pleasant full-stop.

I am not saying that you don't have a point, but I do think you're oversimplifying it by suggesting people embrace spiritually to avoid the stark "reality" of things. The spirituality of man runs far deeper than that and does not originate from ignorance or fear.

Of course other elements underpin the ideas, but as a tool to explain the unknown & a method of escaping death to me seem the most poignant.

Obviously it also offers a sense of purpose (something we seem to naturally desire) - along with a sense of belonging.

The main reason I'm focusing on escaping death is firstly (the topic we are posting in) & secondly it's not something which is offered outside of the supernatural world (the other concepts are).