Richard Dawkins sums up religion

No, Reynolds was charged with three offences. He was excommunicated on the basis of all three offences. The fact that one of those offences carries an automatic excommunication doesn't invalidate the other two offences.

The complaint gave three offenses...we do not know which charges were laid only that one carried an automatic excommunication and required no explanation to the Fr.


We may be squabbling over semantics here. Pope Francis hasn't proposed any sort of liberal interpretation of doctrine - what he has proposed is a different type of pastoral care.

A different type of Pastoral Care manifested through a more liberal application of Doctrine.
 
But thats where you are wrong as man has free will! Whatever path man chooses in life is through his own will. But, i am sure that God does nudge some people in some directions and maybe hopes that some will choose the 'right' path. God doesnt interfere with mans free will. We get to choose, be it right or wrong!

But choosing the wrong path, according to your theology ends in being sent to hell. How exactly is that exercising free will?
 
But thats where you are wrong as man has free will! Whatever path man chooses in life is through his own will. But, i am sure that God does nudge some people in some directions and maybe hopes that some will choose the 'right' path. God doesnt interfere with mans free will. We get to choose, be it right or wrong!

You have just contradicted yourself.
 
You have just contradicted yourself.

No i haven't. Man has free will. God does talk to man. We have free will as to what we do with our lives. God does not 'push' anyone in one direction. He may give us little pointers, nudges, so to speak but at the end of the day, we have free will to choose our own destiny.
 
The Bible itself didn't come into being until the 4th century. Before then the faith was based primarily on oral tradition.

The Tora was around before Jesus and many elements in the new testament were written down ( The Gospels for example) within 40 years or so of the death of Jesus.

The only reason Christianity became widespread in the 4th century was because the Roman Emperor, Constantine, made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.
 
But choosing the wrong path, according to your theology ends in being sent to hell. How exactly is that exercising free will?

Where did i say that one goes to hell if the path chosen is wrong? Where have i stated that one path is right and one wrong?

All i said is that there are many paths in life. We choose the path. Doesnt mean it is the wrong path. Is there a wrong path? I dont know Gods mind so i dont know what would be deemed wrong by God. Is choosing protestant over Catholic or Muslim wrong? Again, only God can answer that.
 
This is a very interesting debate worth watching, Dawkins v Lennox. I'm halfway through it. Great counter arguments on both sides from two brilliant minds.

 
Lots of facts in the bible regarding history, dates, names etc.

Now, regarding scripture, in the Catholic Church a lot of it has to do with 'tradition'. Handed down from the first Bishop of the Church. Core beliefs that have not changed. Its not like other christian denominations that split from the 'true' church who change things to suit themselves.

Also, remember that the Holy Spirit, as i believe, and which is a strong statement in the catholic church, is within those that have carried this tradition down through the ages. Its not about picking up a bible and interpreting it yourself without any background knowledge. To interpret the bible on your own can be very dangerous. Myself, i use a Catholic study bible which is very good at explaining certain chapters etc.

Only got a minute, but a quick comment. I guess god/Jesus didn't start the catholic church and that someone interpreted his message. How can you be sure that the church didn't simple interpret his message in a way that it maintained power over the last 1600 years? It is at least a fact that they did control Europe to a large degree. I am sure others have a better understanding of history but this is just an example.
 
But thats where you are wrong as man has free will! Whatever path man chooses in life is through his own will. But, i am sure that God does nudge some people in some directions and maybe hopes that some will choose the 'right' path. God doesnt interfere with mans free will. We get to choose, be it right or wrong!

The notion that people end up in heaven and hell as some result of a test confuses me, because the test seems so utterly unfair and therefore ultimately pointless, I cannot see how, (a) anyone would believe this to be the case, (b) how any supreme being would invoke such a system.

One of my previous examples, Hitler:-
a) He was run over by a car ages 5 - Heaven or hell?
b) He was accepted in to art college, and through chance meetings becomes a loving (normal) husband with X children - Heaven or hell?
c) Any other random even that results in a totally different outcome - Heaven or hell?

Surely we can see some people's "outcome" is/was down to a series of chance event/happening in their life?


And if we take extreme beliefs where if you don't even believe in (a christian) God, you go to hell, the notion is even more bonkers, as we can clearly see just the culture you're born into has a huge bearing on your resultant faith. Born in the wrong culture/country? You're pretty much stuffed just by misfortune (again).




All i said is that there are many paths in life. We choose the path. Doesnt mean it is the wrong path. Is there a wrong path? I dont know Gods mind so i dont know what would be deemed wrong by God. Is choosing protestant over Catholic or Muslim wrong? Again, only God can answer that.
So we're all in a test, which we don't know the rules to, run by some being we can't see, detect, hear or prove in any way exists?

Why complicate the matter by assuming so much that cannot be proven in anyway exists?
 
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The Tora was around before Jesus and many elements in the new testament were written down ( The Gospels for example) within 40 years or so of the death of Jesus.

The only reason Christianity became widespread in the 4th century was because the Roman Emperor, Constantine, made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.

That is right. Also, as everyone knows, the bible is a compilation of 'books' that some were around a long time before Jesus. The 'Church' decided which books to include in the 'Bible'. The 'Church' was started by Jesus when he told Peter 'On this rock i will build my Church' or words to that effect
 
Where did i say that one goes to hell if the path chosen is wrong? Where have i stated that one path is right and one wrong?

All i said is that there are many paths in life. We choose the path. Doesnt mean it is the wrong path. Is there a wrong path? I dont know Gods mind so i dont know what would be deemed wrong by God. Is choosing protestant over Catholic or Muslim wrong? Again, only God can answer that.

According to Christian theology, the punishment for apostasy is death. I think it's fair to say that there is a 'wrong' path according to your beliefs. Perhaps you haven't read your bible?
 
According to Christian theology, the punishment for apostasy is death. I think it's fair to say that there is a 'wrong' path according to your beliefs. Perhaps you haven't read your bible?

Correct, i have not read the bible fully and i learn something everyday! But, as i said before it is our choice as to how our life pans out. We could be born into a real atheist family but later in life decide to follow God! Also, one could be headed on a dodgy path only to come good at the end of it!

Now, who really knows what God will decide when each of us dies? I would like to believe that God wants us all to do the right thing in life and chances are there for us to take. God wants us to believe in him, to love our 'Creator'. If you decide that God doesnt exist and will not alter that belief then that is your choice and you have to pay for your lack of faith in God, as at the end of the day God wants you to believe in him, he is not forcing you to do so. Enlightenment is there for the taking!
 
Correct, i have not read the bible fully and i learn something everyday! But, as i said before it is our choice as to how our life pans out. We could be born into a real atheist family but later in life decide to follow God! Also, one could be headed on a dodgy path only to come good at the end of it!

Can I ask whether you think it's fair that a person who is generally good throughout their lives but chooses non belief through their own free will, would be sent to hell. And yet a murderer and rapist who chooses to repent prior to their death is sent to heaven?

How does that sit with you morally?
 
Can I ask whether you think it's fair that a person who is generally good throughout their lives but chooses non belief through their own free will, would be sent to hell. And yet a murderer and rapist who chooses to repent prior to their death is sent to heaven?

How does that sit with you morally?

For me, God is all forgiving. I couldnt say what God would choose to do to either example above. Only God can answer that question and i havent got his phone number to ask!
 
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