Uruguay becomes first nation to legalise marijuana trade

[Judgeneo]

Quantify the criminal element and then quantify the risks, please? If it 'far, far outweighs the risk', presumably that's based on some kind of evidence..?

Thousands of Cartel deaths each year in latin america trying to control the trade, and millions-billions of untaxed uncontrolled trade is the criminal side. And as far as I'm aware the damage the drug someone over 21 is minimal to none, though it risk increases the younger you are.
I don't think anyone knows exactly what it does though.

And then compare the criminal element in Uruguay to the criminal element here, because you can't just say the calculation works in Uruguay and therefore it'd necessarily work here, without demonstrating the criminal elements are similar in each country.

Over here is quite different, I don't think anyone is expecting a similar rule change. The experiments in the USA with medical usage and Washington's legalisation are more applicable.

When I talked of other countries following suit, I was thinking more of latin america.

 

[Martini1991]

He seems an interesting character the president, he's the one who is touted as being the 'worlds poorest president' as he donates 90% of his salary to charitable causes & new business start-ups.

He lives in a farm growing chrysanthemums having declined to live in the opulent presidential palace or use its staff, uses an old Volkswagen Beetle as transport & is an atheist.

Seems a cracking fellow.

 

[wesimmo]

The dole bums would have more to waste their lives on if it became legal here.

I'm in two minds about the possibility of legalising it.

Because with the current system they obviously can't do that right now?

Let's face it if you want a smoke you can get one, it's easy enough to buy either online and delivered or to arrange a face to face meet.

I'm not a "dole bum" but i prefer a quiet smoke to a beer, i can and i do, prohibition is only forcing me to deal with criminals in a non taxable market.

Seriously, what is the point in spending millions of pounds to fail completely to enforce a law when you could actually generate income, decriminalise the market making it safer and causing less associated crime and, when all is said and done, probably not even change the consumption profile too much?

 

[zenf]

The dole bums would have more to waste their lives on if it became legal here.

Better to keep them wasting it on alcohol then, that's much better.

It's about time really, will certainly be interesting to see whether other countries follow suit.

 

[Dis86]

I don't see the issue - growing it and selling it while not paying tax can still be cracked down on in the same way growing it currently is.

Growing your own for personal consumption shouldn't be a problem.

Alcohol and tobacco are legal and taxed heavily - you don't see a huge black market of people flogging home brew or growing tobacco plants in their basement

Err...yeah you do. Smuggling of alcohol and cigarettes to avoid taxes and duties is a huge problem. Also 'fake' cigarettes, e.g. those not made to any applicable standards and bootleg alcohol are also major problems with associated health issues. Increased risk of cancers and poisoning from the cigarettes, poisoning and even fatalities from the bootleg alcohol.

 

[zenf]

Err...yeah you do. Smuggling of alcohol and cigarettes to avoid taxes and duties is a huge problem. Also 'fake' cigarettes, e.g. those not made to any applicable standards and bootleg alcohol are also major problems with associated health issues. Increased risk of cancers and poisoning from the cigarettes, poisoning and even fatalities from the bootleg alcohol.

But how much worse would it be if alcohol and cigarettes were illegal? The vast majority of people still get their alcohol and cigarettes through legal channels.

 

[wesimmo]

Err...yeah you do. Smuggling of alcohol and cigarettes to avoid taxes and duties is a huge problem. Also 'fake' cigarettes, e.g. those not made to any applicable standards and bootleg alcohol are also major problems with associated health issues. Increased risk of cancers and poisoning from the cigarettes, poisoning and even fatalities from the bootleg alcohol.

Is it still the case in Sweden that you can only buy alcohol from bars / restaurants and state run shops for home consumption?

That has many advantages if done correctly in that it should at least stop snidy goods being sold to the unknowing through dodgy shops, it won't stop the guy with a hold all in the pub though.

You could do the same with marijuana to regulate it, but then you have to consider the impact on small businesses etc that rely on the alcohol / tobacco trade.

 

[zenf]

It's estimated that 10% of cigarettes and 46% of loose tobacco is smuggled into the UK (2009/10 figure for the latter), fyi.

http://ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_122.pdf

That's a lot more than I would've thought, but the vast majority do still get their tobacco through legal channels (I haven't read the whole article but I'm fairly confident the loose tobacco is massively outweighed by cigarettes).

 

[elmarko]

bootleg alcohol are also major problems

Do you have any evidence to suggest that bootleg alcohol is a major problem?, I only ask as I've yet to meet a single person who purchases (or has ever purchased) 'bootleg alcohol'.

Imported tobacco I can agree, it occurs - but this is more to do with the volume of consumption between tobacco & cannabis & the costs involved, not to mention the inability to grow tobacco at home to save money.

 

[Stretch]

If it succeeds it will add remove a lot of the criminal element away from the drug. Which IMO far far outweighs the risk of making marijuana seem safe.

Pretty much this.

I also think a government drug policy of

"you can so something but shouldn't because....",

will yield much better results that "drugs are bad, they're prohibited",

when clearly they're still readily available on most street corners.

 

[ruffneck]

Do you have any evidence to suggest that bootleg alcohol is a major problem?, I only ask as I've yet to meet a single person who purchases (or has ever purchased) 'bootleg alcohol'.

I watched a documentary once where the bootleg copies were so good most people wouldn't notice they weren't genuine.

 

[EvilDreams]

yet importing untaxed illegal alcohol and tabacco is a massive trade for gangs currently even though both are legal.

But how much worse would it be if alcohol and cigarettes were illegal? The vast majority of people still get their alcohol and cigarettes through legal channels.

That's rather massively obviously because of the high duty.

Disclaimer: Obvious statement follows...

If something is illegal, there will be a black market and it will be expensive.
If something is legal but overtaxed, there will be a black market for cheap versions.

It's really not complicated.

Either way politicians are to blame. You create a black market, you basically create crime and kill people due to adulterated goods.

If you can't get rid of something (within reason of course: not life destroyingly dangerous) because of demand, the way to get rid of the black market is to legalise and then not charge silly duty.

That way everything stays standardised and certified and safe for everyone.

 

[Freefaller]

I don't see the draw of it myself...

However, if it shows with empirical evidence that crime is reduced as a result, then fine it's a good move. However, work environments should have mandatory drug testing before starting the day as it's unfair on others to be surrounded by people who may not be up to full capacity.

If people want to do drugs then no one else gets hurt - they can buy legal/pure stuff which won't necessarily cause them ill effects, crime lords lose out of revenue, less gangs etc... I can see the positives.

It still doesn't stop black market trade and illegality, so the gangs and crimes will still be pushing their illicit products.

What I wouldn't want to see is a lot of doped up people all around me or getting into cars or operating machinery and so on. Why you'd want to do it I don't know, but as long as people are safe then I guess you can't argue with that.

 

[zenf]

That's rather massively obviously because of the high duty.

Obviously.

My point was, the vast majority will pay the higher price for something if the alternative is illegal. So yes, there will always be a black market but it can be massively reduced.

However, if it shows with empirical evidence that crime is reduced as a result, then fine it's a good move. However, work environments should have mandatory drug testing before starting the day as it's unfair on others to be surrounded by people who may not be up to full capacity.

Do you consider alcohol to be a drug?

 

[Freefaller]

Obviously.

My point was, the vast majority will pay the higher price for something if the alternative is illegal. So yes, there will always be a black market but it can be massively reduced.



Do you consider alcohol to be a drug?

Yup - which is why I seldom drink it (special occasions), and would never drive or go to work under the influence. However, I love the social environment that having a few drinks offers, so as long as you're sensible, there's nothing wrong with it.

DOn't get me wrong, I enjoy good wine, nice champagne etc... but it's the taste rather than the effect I'm after. If you could make all these drinks taste the same without the alcohol I'd drink it every day. I don't enjoy getting rat arsed - I like to be aware of what's going on around me.

 

[murah]

I dont want to add fuel onto the fire but its about time, its a plant that has good uses and very little side effects read any credible study made in the last 10 years they all show cannabis is not that damaging, its actually worse for you to eat a Bigmac meal than have a smoke. Or drink a coffee, its not worth the jail time and hopefully if regulated or people allowed to grow their own it would make a huge impact on the organised crime side of things (Although they have a million things at their disposal so probably not).

 

[Freefaller]

What studies show that it's better for you than coffee? I'm interested

(purely because I'm a health freak/nutrition bore )

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I don't see the draw of it myself...

However, if it shows with empirical evidence that crime is reduced as a result, then fine it's a good move. However, work environments should have mandatory drug testing before starting the day as it's unfair on others to be surrounded by people who may not be up to full capacity.

If people want to do drugs then no one else gets hurt - they can buy legal/pure stuff which won't necessarily cause them ill effects, crime lords lose out of revenue, less gangs etc... I can see the positives.

It still doesn't stop black market trade and illegality, so the gangs and crimes will still be pushing their illicit products.

What I wouldn't want to see is a lot of doped up people all around me or getting into cars or operating machinery and so on. Why you'd want to do it I don't know, but as long as people are safe then I guess you can't argue with that.

At least this way you'd know about the users. You can't imagine the pains some people go to just to chill out, while others are punching each other in the face after a few beers, bought from a government approved intoxication establishment.

Nor does anyone really do tests to see who has had a drink the night before. The effects of cannabis in terms of the equivalent of a hangover are very limited, unlike the effects of alcohol.

I don't think, either, that there would be a massive rush for people to start smoking it because it was legalised. Those who live in criminality will move into legality, and maybe a few more people will join in, but part of the thrill for some people is the fact that it is illegal.

One of the strongest campaigns in America for decriminalisation of cannabis is called Norml. What it hope is that by normalising the drug, in the same way that alcohol and cigarettes are common place, the excitement of "ooh an illegal drug, I'd better try that. It must be better because it's illegal" eventually vanishes.

 

[elmarko]

Really, societies attitude on the drug is quite strange if you look at it objectively - the evidence against it's consumption is minimal at best (regarding specific health impacts), it's a natural product with no processing or refinement needed - essentially it's just a plant.

If you compare it to say alcohol or modern cigarettes (in which countless evidence exists against it's consumption) along with the refinement processes involved, I'd have thought those would be the two society rejected.

If I was feeling suspicious & in the mood to wear aluminium on my head I'd theorise it's been a deliberate move, as a simple drug which can be grown anywhere could significantly impact on alcohol & tobacco sales (drugs which require significantly more time & effort to grow/produce at home or it's simply impossible due to the climate).

Historically (if I recall correctly) this was the reason for it's prohibition & wouldn't surprise me if it's impact was still being felt today.

 

[Raymond Lin]

The article says Trade and Uruguay in the same headline, made it sound like trade between countries, which clearly isn't true. It reads like you can only buy it as a registered resident? What's different to Amsterdam?